Dirk1302
Deity
^aelf, you're right, i forgot you're running at least a partial SE so researching constitution after getting nationalism from lib seems clearly best.
The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland
- Thread starter aelf
- Start date
aelf?
aelf
Ashen One
I did say I would be away. Just came back today, and I'm already in the middle of playing the next round.
carl corey
Deity
Maybe some people only read the big posts with shiny pictures. 
Welcome back, aelf, and have a good round.
Welcome back, aelf, and have a good round.
Syndrome Zed
Wanna see my quad laser?
Wow - they should rename aelf's "specialist economy" a "service economy", because that's better service than I ever get in the real world.
Hope you had a good trip (or whatever kept you away)!
aelf
Ashen One
Wow - they should rename aelf's "specialist economy" a "service economy", because that's better service than I ever get in the real world.
Actually, I'm sorry to say that the specialist economy didn't really materialise. We are running specialists for the most part, but it's one or two per city at most and only in the bigger ones. We are largely working the improvements. We even have cottages!
How does anyone run a pure SE? Farming everything and running Caste System seems like scuicide to me when your happiness caps are so low. And don't tell me run HR and stock up on military police. They cost a bomb to maintain, and we still need an offensive army. And you are not running Representation, in that case.Anyway, I've finished playing the next round. I'll post the update during the weekend.
I have a few suggestions since I've been trying SE for a while. I wished I have
seen this earlier.
It's too bad that you researched Machinery, since otherwise you can trade
Paper for Compass, and your next GS will put 1600+ beakers to Liberalism.
Then nobody can possibly beat you to it. Instead I would have ran cast system
and lot's of scientists in Berlin to get that GS asap, meanwhile all the research
would go to Nationalism. I would Liberalism for Constitution.
It's really important to get that next GS, since after that you can safely trade
Philosophy away for Machinery/Engineering. I would then switch immediately
to Bureaucracy/Slavery, whip for universities in six cities (only 3 pops each),
chop and use whipping overflows to build Oxford in Berlin.
Basically in my SE games my capital in the middle game does most of the
research. In your capital I see
irrigated corn + grassland cow + 1 farm + crab + city tile, can support
7 scientists, +2 grom GL gives you 9.
6 beakers from each under representation = 54,
then Oxford+Academy+Library+Uni = +200%.
This alone gives you 54x3=166 beakers, from 0% science rate! And you
only need a population of 11 to do this. Also Mercantilsm and further
settled scientists will increase this greatly. I usually get 200+ at 0%
science rate.
Anyway if I were you now I would still Liberalism for Nationalism and try
to get Constitution asap. But you should still get the Oxford running asap, otherwise
you are wasting the cheap universities you get. Also with Oxford you can
run 5 scientists without cast system. Personally I think for SE Oxford is almost
as important a building as GL. You will get a lot of GS's and for the next 2 I would
use one for Printing Press and one for Chemistry. The rest can settle in Berlin or
do whatever you want with them. Then crush the world with grenadiers and cannons.
seen this earlier.
It's too bad that you researched Machinery, since otherwise you can trade
Paper for Compass, and your next GS will put 1600+ beakers to Liberalism.
Then nobody can possibly beat you to it. Instead I would have ran cast system
and lot's of scientists in Berlin to get that GS asap, meanwhile all the research
would go to Nationalism. I would Liberalism for Constitution.
It's really important to get that next GS, since after that you can safely trade
Philosophy away for Machinery/Engineering. I would then switch immediately
to Bureaucracy/Slavery, whip for universities in six cities (only 3 pops each),
chop and use whipping overflows to build Oxford in Berlin.
Basically in my SE games my capital in the middle game does most of the
research. In your capital I see
irrigated corn + grassland cow + 1 farm + crab + city tile, can support
7 scientists, +2 grom GL gives you 9.
6 beakers from each under representation = 54,
then Oxford+Academy+Library+Uni = +200%.
This alone gives you 54x3=166 beakers, from 0% science rate! And you
only need a population of 11 to do this. Also Mercantilsm and further
settled scientists will increase this greatly. I usually get 200+ at 0%
science rate.
Anyway if I were you now I would still Liberalism for Nationalism and try
to get Constitution asap. But you should still get the Oxford running asap, otherwise
you are wasting the cheap universities you get. Also with Oxford you can
run 5 scientists without cast system. Personally I think for SE Oxford is almost
as important a building as GL. You will get a lot of GS's and for the next 2 I would
use one for Printing Press and one for Chemistry. The rest can settle in Berlin or
do whatever you want with them. Then crush the world with grenadiers and cannons.
aelf
Ashen One
Well, it's not a total failure, I guess. It seems the main difference between your games and this one is the use of Caste System. And since some SE players prefer to stay in Slavery as well, I think it's not such a significant difference.
I still don't understand why one would not build cottages, though. I build more farms that I usually would in this game, but some tiles are just good to cottage.
I still don't understand why one would not build cottages, though. I build more farms that I usually would in this game, but some tiles are just good to cottage.
I agree that running cottages in the type of SE you and I run is a sensible thing to do. Commerce is always welcome as long as you can turn it to beakers or gold. However, if you have the sort of SE that relies on the cultural slider to maintain happiness then commerce is often wasted on culture in cities where it does no good (such as Berlin in our game).
If you plan to use the cultural slider at say 40% or above for long periods then it is a good idea not to build cottages and even get rid of any you capture once the city no longer needs culture. A viable sort of SE can be set up running Caste System (with merchants for money), Pacifism and using the cultural slider to run big cities using maximum farms. Health is then the only limit to the size of cities. That is another way to organise a SE although losing Slavery makes that a low production option unless there are plentiful hills or other hammer sources (maybe Drafting)
My preferred use of the SE, after Liberalism at least, is as a high food Slavery/ Drafting driven war machine, so the cottages make sense as a source of commerce for gold and beakers. I don't care much about falling slightly behind in research, and beakers from commerce supplement the specialists once lightbulbing becomes less useful.
jihe is right about the cheap Universities and getting Oxford up quickly as the better research multipliers help make up for the lower commerce and beakers this hybrid sort of economy based on lightbulbing has after Liberalism.
If you plan to use the cultural slider at say 40% or above for long periods then it is a good idea not to build cottages and even get rid of any you capture once the city no longer needs culture. A viable sort of SE can be set up running Caste System (with merchants for money), Pacifism and using the cultural slider to run big cities using maximum farms. Health is then the only limit to the size of cities. That is another way to organise a SE although losing Slavery makes that a low production option unless there are plentiful hills or other hammer sources (maybe Drafting)
My preferred use of the SE, after Liberalism at least, is as a high food Slavery/ Drafting driven war machine, so the cottages make sense as a source of commerce for gold and beakers. I don't care much about falling slightly behind in research, and beakers from commerce supplement the specialists once lightbulbing becomes less useful.
jihe is right about the cheap Universities and getting Oxford up quickly as the better research multipliers help make up for the lower commerce and beakers this hybrid sort of economy based on lightbulbing has after Liberalism.
It is not a failure! You are doing great In fact you guys inspired me to try immortal. Actually I think the
main mistake is that I got too used to Gandhi and he just switiches to slavery when the need arises and I
keep thinking you can do that too, sorry abou this.
But sometimes that two turns of anarchy is worth it. Maybe you can manage all the whippings to a 5 turn interval?
In fact you guys inspired me to try immortal. Actually I think the main mistake is that I got too used to Gandhi and he just switiches to slavery when the need arises and I
keep thinking you can do that too, sorry abou this.
But sometimes that two turns of anarchy is worth it. Maybe you can manage all the whippings to a 5 turn interval?
Dirk1302
Deity
^aelf, indeed there is nothing wrong with cottaging squares if they feel like that,it's just a choice you make away from pure SE playing. There is nothing wrong with farming them either though and making full use of Biology/Constitution . You can implement a more aggressive slavery variant with lots of whipping or a more peaceful caste system variant with lots of scientists as Jihe suggests. And since you're spiritual you can switch between both variants with no penalty whatsoever, this is what makes SE with the right leader so flexible.
aelf
Ashen One
So it comes down to either Gandhi or the others, eh?
I think what limits the running of specialists in this game is the legitimate needs to grow back after whipping, to work high hammer tiles and to work the gold mines. But I have to admit I haven't made the dedication to farm over some cottage tiles that I could post-CS
Anyway, I shall post at least the first part of the long update tonight.
I think what limits the running of specialists in this game is the legitimate needs to grow back after whipping, to work high hammer tiles and to work the gold mines. But I have to admit I haven't made the dedication to farm over some cottage tiles that I could post-CS
Anyway, I shall post at least the first part of the long update tonight.
aelf
Ashen One
Round 5: 840AD - 1270AD
At the beginning of the round, I decided to make the trade that somebody has suggested:
We weren't going to research Compass on our own and we could use the gold to run deficit research for Constitution after Liberalism.
And we made the proposed switch to both Vassalage and Pacifism. So did the former save us some of the latter's increased unit costs? Let's see... Before:
After:
With savings on other unit cost, we incur a net of -3 from having to pay for the full amount of military unit cost. It worked!
Having acquired Compass, we were able to trade for Optics. More importantly, however, we needed to trade Paper to Huayna so that we could possibly trade Education to him for Engineering. And since we would also get a chance at winning the circumnavigation race, I thought why not:
I figured it was better to make the deal when it was still possible. But I decided to wait till Liberalism was safely under our belt before trading away Education.
Then Washington came with yet another demand that we cut off relations with Brennus:
We couldn't agree to it, of course. Well, despite all their hostility towards each other, we haven't seen a war actually break out. Maybe it will happen with a little persuasion in the future...
A few turns later, we did win the Liberalism race, despite the turn of anarchy and the slightly slower research after switching out of Bureaucracy:
Nationalism was, naturally, the free tech of our choice. We began researching Consitution next.
Meanwhile, war preparations were under way. Vassalage served us well in that regard. However, we would soon need to switch back to Bureaucracy for the sake of our economy and research. But there was another complication - Mercantilism. The free specialists it gives would be very synergistic with Philosophical. A couple of the AIs probably already had Banking, so if we could somehow trade for it, we could save on turns spent in anarchy by switching to Bureaucracy and Mercantilism at the same time, receiving the benefits of both these civics earlier as well.
With this in mind, we pulled off a couple of dizzying tech trades:
We needed Guilds but Huayna wouldn't give it for Education, so I had no choice but to give him Nationalism, getting Theology (Theocracy may prove to be useful in the future; beats getting only Guilds) and some gold out of the deal in addition.
Then, since we've traded Nationalism anyway and couldn't get Engineering for Education, we gave Washington the former for the tech:
Education, though, proved useful enough for getting the tech we were aiming for:
And now it was possible for us to make the civics switch I was thinking of:
These tech trades may seem crazy, but besides accomplishing the above, they made us the most advanced civ at that time.
Anyway, our next GS had been born:
Since getting Democracy early and building the SoL are on the cards, we would keep him to lightbulb Printing Press.
When it became possible, we traded for Music with our long-time friend:
Since we've taken the Nationalism path, we are quite close to getting cavalry. With Music, only Gunpowder and Military Tradition stand in our way. More importantly, however, the gold we got from the deal would allow us to continue our deficit research to get Constitution asap. Besides, it seemed a good opportunity to make a trade with the backward Isabella before we declare war on her again.
Anyway, we built a caravel after getting Optics, which we sent to circumnavigate the world. Land was eventually sighted, and we met the two isolated civs:
They weren't very advanced. I sold CS for all of Louis' gold to provide more funds for our research. The Koreans seemed to have taken a good beating from the French and had been made vassals. But stuck on a much smaller continent, I doubt the latter would play a very significant role for rest of the game. And I don't think we need to cross the ocean to get a domination win.
In the meantime, we had mustered enough force for another invasion of the Spanish territories. I marched our army to the border near Barcelona and declared war. And thus we began the annexation of the remaining major Spanish cities.
[to be continued in the next post...]
At the beginning of the round, I decided to make the trade that somebody has suggested:
We weren't going to research Compass on our own and we could use the gold to run deficit research for Constitution after Liberalism.
And we made the proposed switch to both Vassalage and Pacifism. So did the former save us some of the latter's increased unit costs? Let's see... Before:
After:
With savings on other unit cost, we incur a net of -3 from having to pay for the full amount of military unit cost. It worked!
Having acquired Compass, we were able to trade for Optics. More importantly, however, we needed to trade Paper to Huayna so that we could possibly trade Education to him for Engineering. And since we would also get a chance at winning the circumnavigation race, I thought why not:
I figured it was better to make the deal when it was still possible. But I decided to wait till Liberalism was safely under our belt before trading away Education.
Then Washington came with yet another demand that we cut off relations with Brennus:
We couldn't agree to it, of course. Well, despite all their hostility towards each other, we haven't seen a war actually break out. Maybe it will happen with a little persuasion in the future...
A few turns later, we did win the Liberalism race, despite the turn of anarchy and the slightly slower research after switching out of Bureaucracy:
Nationalism was, naturally, the free tech of our choice. We began researching Consitution next.
Meanwhile, war preparations were under way. Vassalage served us well in that regard. However, we would soon need to switch back to Bureaucracy for the sake of our economy and research. But there was another complication - Mercantilism. The free specialists it gives would be very synergistic with Philosophical. A couple of the AIs probably already had Banking, so if we could somehow trade for it, we could save on turns spent in anarchy by switching to Bureaucracy and Mercantilism at the same time, receiving the benefits of both these civics earlier as well.
With this in mind, we pulled off a couple of dizzying tech trades:
We needed Guilds but Huayna wouldn't give it for Education, so I had no choice but to give him Nationalism, getting Theology (Theocracy may prove to be useful in the future; beats getting only Guilds) and some gold out of the deal in addition.
Then, since we've traded Nationalism anyway and couldn't get Engineering for Education, we gave Washington the former for the tech:
Education, though, proved useful enough for getting the tech we were aiming for:
And now it was possible for us to make the civics switch I was thinking of:
These tech trades may seem crazy, but besides accomplishing the above, they made us the most advanced civ at that time.
Anyway, our next GS had been born:
Since getting Democracy early and building the SoL are on the cards, we would keep him to lightbulb Printing Press.
When it became possible, we traded for Music with our long-time friend:
Since we've taken the Nationalism path, we are quite close to getting cavalry. With Music, only Gunpowder and Military Tradition stand in our way. More importantly, however, the gold we got from the deal would allow us to continue our deficit research to get Constitution asap. Besides, it seemed a good opportunity to make a trade with the backward Isabella before we declare war on her again.
Anyway, we built a caravel after getting Optics, which we sent to circumnavigate the world. Land was eventually sighted, and we met the two isolated civs:
They weren't very advanced. I sold CS for all of Louis' gold to provide more funds for our research. The Koreans seemed to have taken a good beating from the French and had been made vassals. But stuck on a much smaller continent, I doubt the latter would play a very significant role for rest of the game. And I don't think we need to cross the ocean to get a domination win.
In the meantime, we had mustered enough force for another invasion of the Spanish territories. I marched our army to the border near Barcelona and declared war. And thus we began the annexation of the remaining major Spanish cities.
[to be continued in the next post...]
aelf
Ashen One
I've ran out of time, so I'm afraid the second part will only be posted some time tomorrow.
bardolph
King
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2007
- Messages
- 739
Actually, I'm sorry to say that the specialist economy didn't really materialise. We are running specialists for the most part, but it's one or two per city at most and only in the bigger ones. We are largely working the improvements. We even have cottages!
Anyway, I've finished playing the next round. I'll post the update during the weekend.
HR isn't as bad as you think. Unit maintenance is at most 1 gpt per unit (.9 at Immortal). So you're spending .9 gpt to gain 3 beakers (or 3 gold) + 3 gpp. That's a profitable investment.
You can't run Representation without Constitution anyway, so you might as well run HR while you're teching up.
Then, to ease your transition to Representation, make a simultaneous switch to Nationhood. The +
from Representation and Nationhood combined should easily keep pace with the you were getting from HR.Dirk1302
Deity
HR is very good especially if you're able to build warriors (by not researching hunting). you can have size 15 cities before 1AD just as the AI has. I often build these warriors from infrastructure whipping overflow.
aelf
Ashen One
Of course I run HR. It's certainly better than Despotism. However, I don't go beyond 2-3 units giving extra happiness in each city, after which they get too expensive (you still need an offensive army, right). Sure, you can pile them in a few cities where you want to run specialists, but how many specialists can you get? With a library, you can run a maximum of 2 scientists (the pre-Representation choice for an SE, since only they produce sufficient amounts of beakers). That's it. HR and Caste System do work well together, but I've already explained that I prefer Slavery.
bardolph
King
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2007
- Messages
- 739
If you're whipping like a fiend, then who needs happiness? Just whip any city that goes over your happy-cap. But if your happy cap is lower than your health cap, then HR will get you to your health cap.
I agree that Slavery is really nice, but if you're trying to run a Philosophical SE, then you may want to consider giving up the Slavery crutch (it may be too late for this in the present game, however).
Even if you forgo Caste System, you can just work cottages and mines once you run out of specialist slots.
My point is that it's actually not "too expensive" to build soldiers up to your health cap, since each point of happiness will net you more income than expense (I forgot to include your Philosophical trait when calculating GPPs under HR, so building soldiers is actually more profitable than I suggested...).
However, if by "too expensive," you mean it costs too many hammers to build defensive units when you still need offensive troops, then I agree with your position.
