1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The Immortal Challenge 3: The Gathering Storm

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by aelf, Apr 28, 2007.

  1. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,269
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
    The 3rd Immortal Challenge has ended. Click on the links below to read about the rounds played:

    Round1: 3970BC - 2470BC
    Round2: 2470BC - 0775BC
    Round3: 0775BC - 0055BC
    Round4: 0055BC - 0680AD
    Round5: 0680AD - 1040AD
    Round6: 1040AD - 1424AD
    Round7: 1424AD - 1661AD (Part 1)
    Round7: 1424AD - 1661AD (Part 2)
    Round8: 1661AD - 1786AD
    Round9: 1786AD - 1819AD
    Round10: 1819AD - 1887AD
    Round11: 1887AD - 1896AD

    Bonus Space Race Round: 1887AD - 1928AD


    You ask what is our aim? I can answer in one word: Victory. Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terror. Victory however long and hard the road may be. For without victory there is no survival.

    - Winston Churchill



    Though we have been met with defeat in the previous challenge, we shall come to another with the same energy and spirit as we have always had. In the words of the leader we are picking in this game, who aptly put it for us, "We shall never surrender!"

    The Gathering Storm



    We've learned some valuable lessons that would help us avoid a similar fate, both from our mistakes and our little successes, and with a little luck we will succeed this time. Churchill is Charismatic and Protective, a decent combination that shouldn't make our task too difficult. The first trait gives us +1 happiness for absolutely nothing, and on this level, where the happiness cap begins at 3, that is significant. And we get another +1 when we build a monument, a cheap building that is available early. Monuments do obsolete with Calendar, but that tech would also mean we get access to new happiness resources that would make up for it. As a delicious icing on the cake, there is also a discount of 25% in experience points required for our units to level up, something that would be of great utility when we are called upon to take arms. Protective, meanwhile, while not a superior trait on its own, has some synergy with the former. Archery units start with free Drill I and City Garrison I promotions, so combined with the xp discount from Charismatic our archery units will be able to advance up these promotional paths quickly. The most tangible practical application of this is acquiring highly-promoted Drill crossbowmen that will be upgraded to Redcoats. Gunpowder units also get the free promotions. Although they don't get access to subsequent levels of Drill, free Drill I is nothing to laugh at and City Garrison I would be of help even on the offensive by helping us hold on to captured cities. The cheaper city walls and castles are usually negligible, but who can say that they will not play a part?

    The English UU, although not as powerful as its vanilla incarnation, will probably be useful. A rifleman with 25% bonus against gunpowder units, they have little to fear from enemy riflemen and even grenadiers, giving them the ability to dominate the battlefield in their era (in which it's still early enough to fight wars with relatively less risk on Immortal). You can read more about them here. The Stock Exchange (England's UB) isn't very impressive, but it will be helpful in the likely case that we have to compete economically rather than militarily with our remaining rivals in the last leg of the game.

    Fishing and Mining as starting techs are not the worst we can get. The former is traditionally considered as the least useful, since you don't always get a coastal start. But apart from the fact that it can be great if we do get a coastal start, it leads to Pottery, which is universally hailed as an important early game tech. Mining, meanwhile, is a good asset. It's a prerequisite of Bronze Working and it allows us to build mines, which may mean a very early gold mine should we be blessed with that resource in our capital's fat cross.

    As always, we will adhere to the tradition of the Emperor/Immortal Challenge series in demonstrating skill. As we have just learned bitterly, Immortal is not a walk in the park. We don't have a specific strategy this time, but to get elite Drill IV Redcoats, it might do us well to grab Metal Casting with the Oracle and try to get Machinery asap to build crossbows. As for the economy, I'd lean towards a conventional cottage economy, though we will probably want to set a GP farm up as quickly as possible.

    The Rules

    Anyone and everyone can give their opinion and advice regarding the game at end of every round, including making recommendations or commenting on previous moves. Spoilers, though, are against the rules. Please keep the discussion constructive (i.e. no flaming/trolling).

    At the start of every round, I will decide which advice is most suitable and apply or adapt it while playing. If I feel that there is not enough advice to base decisions on, I will (usually) ask and wait for more. Non-Immortal players can also offer their advice. I've seen a lot of good ideas from players who play below this difficulty, and if you're a Deity player you could perhaps enlighten us.

    The Settings

    The game will be on standard settings (i.e. continents, 7 players, everything on default) and Epic speed. We are switching back to Epic to help us fight the necessary wars of expansion without falling too far behind like in the previous game.

    And, finally, the game itself...

    Our start:



    A decent start with more than enough food and fresh water. And it's coastal, which is very apt considering the civ we're playing ;) Too bad we start with Fishing, since there's no seafood, instead of Agriculture. The first tech we will research seems quite obvious, given the circumstances.

    There is a hut very near us, but I reckon we should wait for our border to pop it. Moving the warrior NE is the best starting move I can think of, and we should probably just settle in place.

    Storm clouds are gathering over our continent, but whose lightning will it be?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. NaZdReG

    NaZdReG Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2006
    Messages:
    553
    Too early to tell but are you leaning towards a CE this time around?? I see you mention that the stock exchange is mediocre, but it can be leveraged with rush buying.

    I really like playing english to specifically hit that time period. briefly turn off research and over 10 turns (or so) start markets in all cottage cities. rush buy them next turn. start grocers in those cities. rush buy them next turn. start stock exchanges. rush buy next turn. suddenly you are at 2x gold output.

    rush buy a pile of redcoats and cannons and go pound someone with it :ar15:

    just my .02

    NaZ
     
  3. Civman123

    Civman123 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    106
    I agree with settling in place. Unless Warrior NE reveals anything important, I say settle in place.
     
  4. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,269
    Location:
    NZ
    Yes you start with fishing BUT... no useful seafood resources, Do you really want a that extra 50% Trade Routes commerce (from Habour) for a coastal capital???

    Currently you have 6 Coastal tiles. Personally I'd move the Settler 1N of the lake and settle there as it still gets both the corn and Pigs within the Fatcross, although I don't know what we'll lose out on E and SE of the Corn But I'd Risk it for more Improvable tiles.

    Since we're settling on a Forest I doubt there we will accidentally settle on a military resource.

    I also believe you should build Stonehenge if the circumstances allow for it, It won't only Give you +1 Culture to all of your new cities, you also get +1 happiness from your Charismatic trait.
     
  5. Bhruic

    Bhruic Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,457
    I'd have to agree with kniteowl, settling in place seems inferior to 1N of the lake. That means you should pop the hut with the Warrior, as it will take too long for the borders to pop it (2 expansions).

    Bh
     
  6. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,269
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
    Wouldn't it be advisable to move the warrior NE first before doing this, just to get a glimpse of what's up there?

    Anyway, it is unfortunate that we have a coastal start with no seafood and several coastal tiles, but having a coastal capital can be a good thing. Besides the bonus from harbour, it also allows the easy creation of ships should we need some. And IMO there might be a reason why we are here and not 1N of the lake. To my knowledge, the RNG seems to like to give starts that are 1 tile from the coast, so a coastal start is definitely not something that the RNG considers as highly important. Now that we are on the coast but have no seafood, I wonder what could be in store for us.
     
  7. Sjaramei

    Sjaramei Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2005
    Messages:
    510
    Settling north of the lake means after 2nd border pop the hut is enclosed, and you can safely pop it at 3rd anyway. (and i think it doesn't matter if you do it on 2nd or 3rd anyway)

    I hate coastal starts like that, so i would move north of the lake regardless if new resources are found by the warrior. (ocean squares are sucky!)
     
  8. nullspace

    nullspace Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    728
    Is this actually important? I've never tried it, but my understanding is that drill is good for minimizing damage in battles you would win without any promotions, but combat promotions are better for close battles. I think I'd rather have city raider 3 redcoats than drill 4 redcoats.

    One of my long-term goals with Churchill would be to go on the offensive with drafted redcoats. They get drill 1 and city garrison 1 for free, and with barracks and theocracy, they get one more promotion which can be pinch since they already have drill 1. That's a good drafted unit, that you want to have lots of, and drafting will let you make many very quickly.
     
  9. Sjaramei

    Sjaramei Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2005
    Messages:
    510
    Drill makes you kill units often without taking damage at all. I usually promote some Drill 2/3 tanks to mop up AI harassers or for defending my stack. They do better than a combat 3 tank vs similar promoted units.

    The problem with Drill promotions is the invisible effect. You won't see it in the odds for attacking/defending. That usually makes you underestimate it.
     
  10. The Green Man

    The Green Man Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2007
    Messages:
    20
    Only by whipping though: your start shows very little production. Looking closely at the edge of the fog around your one plains hill, it appears there's another hill north of it (and east of it too, I think). So 2N or 1NE look like better spots than your starting square.

    It is possible that the RNG crammed some other resource next to that corn, but not likely. The game seems generally to avoid putting non-Calendar resources immediately adjacent to another resource unless your start is deemed more challenging for some reason (like proximity to another civ, or surrounded by desert). If you were in that kind of situation, you would've gotten seafood. So I don't think you'll lose anything by moving.
     
  11. Bhruic

    Bhruic Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,457
    Well, yes, but unless it turns out to be jam-packed full of desert, it would seem to be a better bet. If you were financial, the coast squares might be a little more tempting, but as it stands now, they really don't give you much.

    That's certainly true, but I can't see ships being necessary short term. Which means there'll be the opportunity to make a coastal city down the line.

    Well, that "reason" certainly isn't seafood. :) You may be right about there being some hidden advantage (sea-based oil?), but I would rely on that. By moving 2N, you don't lose any of the land you currently see, other than the square the hut is on, which isn't important. And you have the potential of gaining a lot of better land. All at the cost of 1 turn. To me, that seems worth it.

    Bh
     
  12. Sam_Yeager

    Sam_Yeager Another Original Geezer

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    2,803
    Location:
    England
    Well I'm only noble player, at best ,in SP so take my comments with a large dose of salt.

    However is that a desert tile to the SE of the settler? There doesn't seem to be a river about for flood plains. It would have been nice to see where the settler's blue circle(s) is/are as well. I agree that the start point is not that brilliant from a production point of view. I would certainly like to see the position after warrior moves NE. Perhaps also worth moving the settler 2 NE to the hill as well? Although maybe that's delaying settling the capital too much at this level?
     
  13. Whitefire

    Whitefire Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,178
    Definitely move the warrior NE before deciding to settle.
     
  14. ungy

    ungy Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,907
    I would move warrior NE first, then likely move settler to plains hill unless warrior turns up something compelling. If settler doesn't find anything I would be looking to settle 2N, 1E of the start. I think the start is too hammer poor and I would definately move inland. If we see 2N, 1E is weaker than 2N, we have the option to settle there (although we have lost 2 turns by the move).

    Not sure if it's correct strategy, but I'm always inclined to move and risk a turn or two to get a better spot. If it pays off, you win big. If not, the turn or two is not a huge handicap (especially at epic).

    Another advantage of 2N, 1E is that if there is a seafood to the N it gives us the option to cram another city in later which we lose by 2N.
     
  15. Melior Traiano

    Melior Traiano Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    220
    Good to see you're back in the saddle, aelf. Start looks decent, the two food bonuses in themselves can support 4 scientists while maintaining food parity. The 4 irrigated grassland squares will also support 2 more, so SE looks like a good option. Looks like you might also pop one of the strategic resources in London's fat cross too.

    Even nerfed, the Redcoat is still arguably the most dominant UU in the game, as they come online during the window where the game is often decided on Immortal and the one counter-unit to them only gains an upper hand if the Redcoats are made to defend. Drill 4 Redcoats are absolute beasts in their time, to say nothing about Macemen city raiders upgraded to Redcoats. The Protective trait certainly helps to get to Drill 4 that much quicker. As always, I'll be following along with great interest. :goodjob:
     
  16. nullspace

    nullspace Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    728
    I started up the worldbuilder to do some tests on this. A drill 4 rifleman versus an unpromoted rifleman shows a 78.7% chance to win, so the calculator does include first strikes.

    A drill 4 redcoat versus a combat 2 rifleman shows 87.7%, and a combat 4 redcoat versus a the same rifleman shows 89.6% chance to win. That seems like a typical situation to me, and it looks like drill really isn't anything special in the open field where the redcoat has the advantage.

    How about when attacking a city? A rifleman with city garrison 2 and a 25% bonus for being fortified will defend a city with no cultural defense. The drill 4 redcoat has a 28.9% chance to win. A redcoat with drill 1 and combat 3 has 34.1% chance to win. The combat redcoat, which you can build, has better odds than the drill redcoat, which you would have to upgrade. A redcoat with city raider 3 has an 88.0% chance to win this fight. Now that's an upgrade worth doing. A redcoat with drill 1 and pinch has 29.9% chance to win. You can draft a unit with those promotions, and it has better odds of winning than the drill 4 redcoat.

    So I really don't see any reason to do a mass upgrade of drill 4 crossbows. First strikes are good for minimizing damage against weak enemies; a drill 4 redcoat would be great for defending a city against lots of musketmen, but I don't think it's practical in a real situation.

    Btw, in the 4000 BC save, moving the warrior one NE reveals some grasslands, plains, forests and hills. Not bad but nothing special. I think it's worth it to move, there's more production up there.
     
  17. Sjaramei

    Sjaramei Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2005
    Messages:
    510
    They must have fixed it in a patch then :)
    Well done :clap:
     
  18. Hackapell

    Hackapell Rhetorician

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    527
    Location:
    The City of Blinding Lights
    I think that you should move the warrior before settling in place. The site is probably an excellent GP Farm(Coastal squares produce 2 food with LIghthouse, and 2 food resources make for 6 food each!) so you may have to move your capital eventually.
     
  19. EEE_BOY

    EEE_BOY Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Messages:
    3,148
    Location:
    NZ
    move 2N, early production is much more important than anything else. by moving 2N u get at least one more plain hill. later u if u get CS, u get more from 50% bonus. u still put the fishing to use by working the lake if u want the early commerce. start by worker->worrier->worrier-> settler, tech: agri->BW->wheel->Myst->AH(or pottery)
     
  20. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,227
    The price of moving a capital for one turn is actually quite severe. I usually only move it if the starting start is aweful, and moving it will solve the problem, which ususally happens with too much of a good thing, ie too many flood plains. Arctic starts aren't worth quitting out of if it means wandering for 1000 years.

    As for agriculture being an obvious first tech, I don't believe it's quite that obvious. As far as conservatism is concerned, I might get bronze working first and chop out a worker and settler once we get to size 2 (wait with building a warrior). Now on deity it would not be possible to pull off, but on immortal, is it possible to try this:

    bronxe --> agriculture --> animal husbandary --> mysticism --> stonehenge?

    Charismatic gets +1 from monuments too. And with two health resources in capital, and probably one more from a fish in a third city or something (second city for strategic resource), who needs all the forests for the health?
     

Share This Page