The Industrial and Modern Tech Trees are Utterly Broken

[civ54lyfe]

Gatling Gun idea is good.

 

[Maxym]

Give GWB a 20-30% chance per flight of just dying randomly instead. They were around in the time period, so I wouldn't cut them.

The main problem was that
a) planes were new and hardly anyone knew how to fly so you couldn't mass them.
b) they were really, really unreliable.

Having them randomly blow up would represent the unreliablity.

worst idea EVER, in a 1UPT game where building a unit like ghost bomber takes longer than discovering a new tech, to have it just mystriously blow up?

I think limiting the massing of air units should solve most issues, and it is being adressed in fall patch.

And onto another point that got mentioned that a frigate based navy was blown out of the water by GWB That's as it should be, and don't expect to launch intercontinental invasions against civs with flight without air cover.

 

[Peng Qi]

And onto another point that got mentioned that a frigate based navy was blown out of the water by GWB That's as it should be, and don't expect to launch intercontinental invasions against civs with flight without air cover.

Apparently that argument went WAY over your head. The point was that there IS NO AIR COVER available for navies until about two tech tiers AFTER GWBs, which beyond just being stupid from a gameplay perspective is also absurdly unrealistic.

 

[whyidie]

That is actually a really elegant solution. That would also be sort of a carrot to do the expensive Crosbowman -> Gattling Gun upgrade which I often find myself unwilling to do because the limited range of Gattlings makes them much less useful than earlier ranged units.

Unless I'm playing King or got a good Emperor roll, I can't afford to not upgrade them. AI's running around with Musketmen/Rifleman/Cavalry, I need the gatlings.

 

[fyar]

Apparently that argument went WAY over your head. The point was that there IS NO AIR COVER available for navies until about two tech tiers AFTER GWBs, which beyond just being stupid from a gameplay perspective is also absurdly unrealistic.

Yes, that was exactly my point, thanks.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for earlier carriers. If anything, I think carriers should be further delayed until Radar, to go with real fighters/bombers. But in that case, since there is no naval counter to great war bombers, which historically had no effect whatsoever on naval warfare, I think the ONLY solution is to get rid of GWBs altogether.

 

[RedLens]

It will be interesting to see how the fall patch affects this. Hopefully the limit of 6 air units per city without an airport will be sufficient. In my current immortal game, the runaway Shoshone keep piling 20 bombers into a city and decimating my units. Luckily I'm ahead of him in tech or I'd be toast.

 

[zyx]

Maybe GWB should move like the bombers in Civ I: Having max 8 range and having to land at least every second turn in a city to refuel. with 1 Upt there could be max 6 airstrikes against a city per turn, and as GWB would have to move to the city the city could be protected by units surrounding it, as GWB had no free way up to the city.

Being able to buy and base a lot of airunits within one turn/city is not balanced.

 

[Wodan]

Maybe GWB should move like the bombers in Civ I: Having max 8 range and having to land at least every second turn in a city to refuel.

Nothing else in CiV works that way, it'd be nice to not do a fix which requires custom coding. I'd rather they spend their coding time improving the ai.

All in all, seems to me that reducing the # of air units per city, decreasing the GWB range, decreasing its damage, and/or increasing its cost will be more than sufficient to resolve the balance issues.

 

[Peng Qi]

Nothing else in CiV works that way, it'd be nice to not do a fix which requires custom coding. I'd rather they spend their coding time improving the ai.

All in all, seems to me that reducing the # of air units per city, decreasing the GWB range, decreasing its damage, and/or increasing its cost will be more than sufficient to resolve the balance issues.

...except for with city states and naval assaults, which it won't address at all.

 

[Wodan]

...except for with city states and naval assaults, which it won't address at all.

And why, again, are those a problem that they won't address? (Yes, I've read the whole thread. I just don't see a huge problem with, for example, GWBs pwning frigates, especially with my suggested changes which would mean you'd only have 1 or 2 of them, and they'd be more expensive and less damage. Frigates running around against ca. 1920 units should be pwned.)

But anyway, I wouldn't have a huge problem with the Combustion suggestion, or giving some ground units a slight interception %, or adding a unit or two such as the Dreadnought.

 

[kaspergm]

Unless I'm playing King or got a good Emperor roll, I can't afford to not upgrade them. AI's running around with Musketmen/Rifleman/Cavalry, I need the gatlings.

I tend to find Rifles sufficient - and in fact better suited - for defence than Gattlings, given they have a higher combat strength, but then again, I used to play Emperor at top and have been playing mostly King since BnW, so maybe that will explain that.

 

[qutsemnie]

Arty always seemed worse to me. Once you discover the power of arty you pretty much have to turn up the difficulty until the AI will beat you to, or match your time to, arty, or games are trivial, and it has to be every AI that matches your time or you just snack on a free lunch at the arty spike and consolidate your new empire.

For example, last night I played on emperor. I had a horrible start being pinched between three empires. Really should have been a lost game, but the koreans on one side were being slow to arty as they were even a little bit worse off than me. My neighbor on the other side were way ahead of all of us and had taken most of the continent. I had a war with Koreans. Hit an arty spike. Stomped their entire side quickly, and then turned to my other neighbor who got arty just a tad after me (he had gone flight), but the point is I now had a decent sized empire because of the arty spike and I could deal with them by targeting down their arty. Strategically lost game--won by arty.

In an Arty versus non-arty war, neighboring AIs pretty much just have to give you their entire empire. It is by far the biggest bump in in city taking power in the game and the hardest for the AI to deal with. Also, if for some reason you had the sense to make horse units that got the promotion to see 3 squares this applies double because you no longer have the "I can't see the city problem."

Now, if the AI has arty and you have arty it is bad but not as bad for the AI, so it is a bit of a design flaw and an AI flaw.