The Iroquois

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Edaka, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,387
    I disagree, Iroquois forest camp is not any stronger than regular camp if you factor in the Herbalist's 1:c5food::c5production: per 2 worked forests thing. It's effectively +1:c5food::c5production: vs 1:c5production: (camp bonus) + 1/2:c5production::c5food:, so they're sidegrades (unless you have an uneven amount of forest/jungle tiles worked - but then I'd also rather have 1 Prod vs 1 Food when it's even). Iroquois Plantations are a different beast, though, they're certainly stronger than non-Iroquois pants.
     
  2. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,546
    Gender:
    Male
    Herbalist only gives 1 food per 2 worked tiles not hammers so Iroquois camps will be better. I think it should be ok though.
    The thing with that is that it means forest tiles with resources don't get buffed, which I think is a nerf to Iroquois because being able to get super tiles without worker investments is a significant plus of the longhouse, and resources should help that, not hinder it.

    I do realize that the Iroquois is very terrain dependent but that was already how the Iroquois were before these proposed changes, and reintroducing a base building bonus isn't a bad thing imo.
     
  3. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,667
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    That's not really what I meant. When you play Iroquois, some starts are stronger than others. The best start you can get is a forest start with camp luxuries around it. This will make those starts even stronger.

    If the issue we were trying to solve was terrain dependancy, this might not really solve that. If the issue wasn't terrain dependancy, why are we doing it?
     
  4. Gizmoman

    Gizmoman Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2020
    Messages:
    152
    This died down for some reason, but never got fixed. Feels pretty obvious that the longhouse should provide at least the same bonus to camps as the building it replaces.
     
  5. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2019
    Messages:
    757
    Agreed.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  6. bahamut19

    bahamut19 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2020
    Messages:
    70
    This is the only change Iroquois needs. I agree their games can seem situational, but I've never had a bad game with them. I never have viewed then as a domination Civ. Their Great Warpath is great on defense more than offense, and the Longhouse gets you key food and production benefits to the early game, which is vital for your foundational infrastructure, which can be used towards any victory condition.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  7. Gizmoman

    Gizmoman Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2020
    Messages:
    152
    I'm not arguing whether they need a buff or not, it just feels bad that the UB is in some situations straight up worse than a normal herbalist, when there's no real good reason why it should be.

    It doesn't need to provide anything more to camps than the regular herbalist, which just means that non-forested camps are just as good as for any other civ, and forested camps are just as much better as regular forests are.
     
    Melchizedek likes this.
  8. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,667
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    Yeah, OK. I could argue the minutiae but it's a not a huge change and a lot of people seem to be in favour.
     
    Chaste likes this.
  9. Grassland Farm

    Grassland Farm Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2011
    Messages:
    295
    Location:
    Le mighty motherland France
    Bold weird brainstorming suggestion:
    Have the +20% combat bonus near natural wonders also apply to Ancient Ruins, Archeology Spots/Digging Sites, and Landmarks.

    Obviously that'd be a straight buff (but it could come with downgrades), I just had this epiphany that there's not that much "competition" for archeology spots aside from "produce archeologist, send to safe spot, press button"
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    8,679
    I think that would make the ability have more "weight" from 1 game to the next, though the flavor issue doesn't really change. Why do the Iroquois have this kind of combat bonus in the first place?
     
  11. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian King

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2019
    Messages:
    757
    Is it possible code-wise to have a certain amount of non-forest/jungle tiles "transformed" into forest/jungle tiles when the Iroqouis found a city? So that way they'd be certain to have "enough" forest/jungle tiles to work with?
     
    grmagne likes this.
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    18,367
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    it does make it a bit easier for the Iroquois to forward settle on natural wonders and/or snipe them
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  13. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,667
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    I don't know. I figure it was related to them being attuned to the natural world or something. Maybe a religious/spiritual thing. That may not be the case though, it doesn't apply very often so it's not something I've really looked into.
     
  14. Grassland Farm

    Grassland Farm Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2011
    Messages:
    295
    Location:
    Le mighty motherland France
    Yeah, at least from a thematic standpoint where you play VP for the first time and glance at the UAs, it looks good. "Oh well their ability is Great Warpath and if they choose to, they can go to war over a natural wonder and fight better".
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  15. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,285
    I have an idea to make the Iroquois a bit better. Make the Longhouse a Unique Improvement, instead of a Herbalist UB. This fixes the persistent issue of camps.

    Longhouse
    Unique Improvement. Only the Iroquois may build it. Can build in Forests or Jungles, or in Non-Desert or Snow tiles that border a Forest or Jungle. Longhouse tiles are treated as Forests as long as the Improvement is unpillaged. (Can't use Longhouses, to build more longhouses further away). Can be built-in or adjacent to Iroquois Territory.

    This improves the spottiness of their UA because they can use the Longhouses to extend and connect forests and jungles for road and movement purposes. While also slowing the movement of enemy troops because Longhouses count as forests, so you can block off territory. As well as improve forests early in the game, before others unlock Lumber mills. But not introduce a full-on forest growing mechanic.

    As for the yields, I'm thinking that it would benefit from the same extra yields that Lumbermills get from tech and policies. Maybe also a single production on the tech that ordinarily unlocks Lumbermills. In addition to the base yields of

    +1 Food, +1 Production, +1 Culture. +1 Gold if bordering a Camp or Plantation

    However I'm not super attached to these yields, and so they could be changed.

    But the basic improvement before tech buffs would be

    3 Food, 2 Production 1 Culture (Grassland Forest)
    3 Food, 2 Production 1 Culture (Jungles)
    2 Food, 3 Production, 1 Culture (Plains Forest)
    2 Food, 2 Production, 1 Culture (Tundra Forest)
    3 Food, 1 Production, 1 Culture (Grasslands)
    2 Food, 2 Production, 1 Culture (Plains)
    2 Food, 1 Production, 1 Culture (Tundra)

    With the 1 Gold bonus being fairly common for neighbouring a Camp or Plantation. And on gaining a normal Herbalist, all these tiles also get 0.5 Food (since Longhouses count as Forests) So the Iroquois can get a lot out of the basic Herbalist, even if it isn't their UB anymore.

    It could also be swapped around, so that the Gold is in the base yield, while the Culture comes from the bordering of camps and Plantations. Not really fussed either way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
    Heinz_Guderian and Chaste like this.
  16. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    152
    I think the culture yield would be too powerful if there is no adjacency limit (as fun as I would find it though), as we would be going from a building that gives 1c or 2c (can't remember right now) to potentially 3-6 culture per luxury (if we limit it through adjacency we're talking 1-3c per lux), which I believe is potentially much more powerful, albeit requiring more work.
    Maybe if you get 0,5C per longhouse if adjacent to a luxury? Don't really know what's doable, but you also have to think that if we make it an UB and it's spammeable, it becomes extremly strong at ideologies, so it's something to take into account when considering adjancency limit (but then it resembles brazilwood camp too much imho).
     
  17. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,285
    I don't think 0.5 Culture on a tile really works. The Half yields are attached to a building which is actually still just one yield, just for working two tiles. Halves don't count, its just a way of referring to the tile.

    And there are a bunch of UIs that have culture attached. Ekis have no restrictions on being next to each other and they have 1 Food, Production, Culture, extra production from being next to each other, and more extra yield triggers than Lumbermills do. Of course, flat grasslands or plains with no water is slightly more restrictive, and forests have more base yields so it balances out. Moai have tons of culture, as do Brazilwood camps. Encampments also have culture. And they are all also early UI unlocks around the same era.

    Generally, these tiles aren't going to be the only ones working, since while food positive or neutral, they aren't providing enough for serious growth. Nor do they provide serious gold or heavy production. They are kinda all-rounder tiles.

    Finally, I don't really think that the Iroquois are that OP, that this buff would be too much. They at the moment seem kinda low mid tier.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
  18. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    291
    Location:
    Sweden
    I think it is a nice idea, the exact yields are obviously up for debate but it really feels like the iroquois needs a change in this direction, not just stronger bonuses for example.
     
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    7,157
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    A longhouse makes more sense as a unique building. they weren’t just out on the terrain like lodges, they were the core of a town.
     
  20. InkAxis

    InkAxis King

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2020
    Messages:
    717
    Gender:
    Male
    It could just plant a forest and not allow any adjacent longhouses. It would stop any infinite forest chains, and would be *much* easier to code, rather than having to make an improvement get all kinds of different bonuses that forests get.

    I don't really know the history here but I think we can stretch it in this case to make the civ a little more consistent and a lot more interesting. We could have it get +1 of a yield for being next to a city center to represent that.

    The main issue is the 3d model.
     

Share This Page