[RD] The Last Jedi – Another Cold Rehash

[Manfred Belheim]

Just like there's no such thing as bad pizza, there's no such thing as a bad Star Wars movie.

Episodes I to III beg to differ.

I'm going to create a game for us to play on CFC once worrying about spoilers is no longer an issue.

I have no idea what anyone concerned about spoilers would even be doing in this thread at the moment, so I'd say go for it.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Awful "jokes". Terrible lapses in physics/general believability. Horrendous military discipline. Annoying porgs. Pretty good film.

See this position... the "I didn't care for X, Y, or Z, but I like it overall" makes a lot more sense to me than the "OMG its the worst ever I'm so mad Star Wars is ruined I want my money back"... I just can't see any justification for that attitude.

About the "physics/believability" critique... we all know this comes up all the time for Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Civ, etc., and the response is the same. Its a subjective thing that is tied to where you personally draw the line in terms of immersion, right? Because lazer swords, "light speed", lazer blasters, moving rocks, ships, bulkheads, doors etc with your mind/ "the Force"...

I mean... to paraphrase Yoda... ""Believability, heh, physics, heh, a Star Wars fan craves not, these things."

 

[Manfred Belheim]

About the "physics/believability" critique... we all know this comes up all the time for Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Civ, etc., and the response is the same. Its a subjective thing that is tied to where you personally draw the line in terms of immersion, right? Because lazer swords, "light speed", lazer blasters, moving rocks, ships, bulkheads, doors etc with your mind/ "the Force"...

Well... disagree completely with that. In order for fantastical elements to work, you kind of need the mundane stuff to be grounded in reality. I mean if the "Rebels" all suddenly decided to start wearing shoes made out of cheese for no reason, it would be reasonable to comment on that and see it as stupid right? You wouldn't say "well it's a bit ridiculous to criticise cheese shoes when you have people moving rocks with their minds, scoff scoff" would you?

In any case the "believability" I was referring to wasn't to do with the physics, it was nonsensical decisions and/or happenings or things that just don't stand up to much logical scrutiny. I could elaborate, but apparently we're not doing spoilers for some reason.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Also, about that specific scene where folks are all "OMG the physics are wrong that's where I draw the line" about... I don't think the critique of that aspect of the scene even holds that much water. Here's why:

1. We all accept the idea that on board ships, there's gravity, because there just is, they do it somehow with [insert technobabble]. We also accept the idea that ships, space stations, etc can open hangar doors etc, without everyone getting sucked out, because again, they just can, because of [insert technobabble].

Spoiler :

So when the bomb-bay doors open, assuming the bombs are hanging on a string and are released... the gravity inside the ship would cause them to fall "down" and their "downward" inertia would carry them in that same direction as they left the ship into open space

2. Also, IIRC

Spoiler :

the ship they were bombing was between them(the bomber) and the planet, so the planet's gravity would cause a free-falling object (the bombs) to fall towards the planet and thus into the ship they were "above"

3. And What about

Spoiler :

the idea that such a massive object like the Dreadnought would itself have some degree of gravity such that the free falling bombs would naturally tend to fall "down" into it when dropped from close range?

4. Finally, the critique seems to completely ignore the possibility that

Spoiler :

the bombs were not simply "hanging" on some release hook, but instead attached at one end to a conveyer/catapult system that actually pushed the bombs out of the bay door to deploy them. People are incredulous that the bombs could have "fallen" the way they did, but ignore the possibility that they didn't "fall" at all but were actually pushed out in the direction of the target, creating inertia that would carry them "downward" through open space.

And I'm even discounting the possibility that the bombs had some kind of limited propulsion or guidance tech (also technically possible), because then they would be more like missiles and there wouldn't be any need to fly to a specific spot over the target.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Since I can't be bothered to learn how to use spoiler tags, I'll just say that 1 to 3 don't hold water as explanations, but 4 sounds plausible.

 

[Evie]

I think you're a little quick to dismiss #3 as a contributive factor, considering the size of the ship in question - it's not far from the size where asteroids are said to start being able to pull jumping humans back to their surface.

The generation of artificial gravity inside the ship may also have some impact on gravity outside the ship.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Since I can't be bothered to learn how to use spoiler tags, I'll just say that 1 to 3 don't hold water as explanations, but 4 sounds plausible.

Not sure how/why you dismiss 1 and 2, but I agree that you shouldn't explain if you're not going to use spoilers.

In any case, you only need one plausible explanation for it to go from "OMG the physics! Suspension of disbelief ruined" to "OK I'm with you story... go on." As we've both pointed out... its really a matter of degree, and where you draw the line in terms of your suspension of disbelief. I agree that Swiss cheese shoes crosses that line. The scene in question did not, not even close... there's way too many plausible explanations, and even you agree that there's at least one.

 

[BenitoChavez]

Spoiler Ok but... :

Wouldn’t it be better if the special effects team added some propulsion jets on the bombs or some other indicator showing how they could fall? Instead the audience has to perform some mental gymnastics in order to get a plausible theory that could be possible

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Spoiler Spoiler? :

Okay, it's hidden under "Insert..."

1. Doesn't add up because the bombs at the "top" of the bay had further to fall inside the ship, so would have been accelerated more than those at the bottom and would have overtaken them as they fell. But they all fell at the same rate. You could get around that with some sort of differential/varying artificial gravity field in the bomb bay, but then it starts being too clumsy to be a neat explanation.

2. The ships themselves would have most likely also been in freefall/orbit around the planet at the time. It's possible they weren't, but it would be incredibly wasteful and pointless to burn all that fuel to keep the ships flying in perfectly straight lines in space.

3. It might be big but it's not THAT big, and it's largely hollow too. The bombs fell at pretty much 1G, which would require something a lot bigger, unless the hull of the destroyer is made of dwarf star alloy or something.

So if anything I'd say 1 & 2 are more plausible than 3, but so inelegant that I wouldn't swallow them as an adequate explanation.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Spoiler Ok but... :

Wouldn’t it be better if the special effects team added some propulsion jets on the bombs or some other indicator showing how they could fall? Instead the audience has to perform some mental gymnastics in order to get a plausible theory that could be possible

See my #4

Spoiler :

with propulsion, etc., they become more like missiles or smart bombs which defeats the point of heroically steering the ship through enemy fire to position the bombers "above" the weak spot.

Okay, it's hidden under "Insert..."

Your dismissal of #1 and #2 is problematic. I'm not an astrophysicist, nor do I have that kind of specialized knowledge in that area, so I can't make any credible argument about your statement against #3

Spoiler :

1. Doesn't add up because the bombs at the "top" of the bay had further to fall inside the ship, so would have been accelerated more than those at the bottom and would have overtaken them as they fell. But they all fell at the same rate. You could get around that with some sort of differential/varying artificial gravity field in the bomb bay, but then it starts being too clumsy to be a neat explanation.

But they were attached by a string of some sort and each strand was lined up in some kind of vertical rack/tube. So when the ones on the top free fall via the internal gravity of the ship, they would simply bump into the ones underneath, transferring their "downward" inertia to the ones below, thereby pushing them out at the same rate. And TBH... at this point aren't we overthinking it a bit?... nitpicking to find fault with something that is at la minimum, plausible and in no way the least plausible thing going on in the Star Wars universe?

2. The ships themselves would have most likely also been in freefall/orbit around the planet at the time. It's possible they weren't, but it would be incredibly wasteful and pointless to burn all that fuel to keep the ships flying in perfectly straight lines in space.

Nah they weren't in freefall, remember? They were in a battle so everyone was moving at attack speed. The bombers were accelerating to catch up with the Dreadnought while the Dreadnought was accelerating to bring the target enemy base in range.

3. It might be big but it's not THAT big, and it's largely hollow too. The bombs fell at pretty much 1G, which would require something a lot bigger, unless the hull of the destroyer is made of dwarf star alloy or something.

I will cop to not knowing enough about relative gravity as related to mass or how to eyeball G-forces of falling objects to refute this.

 

[Evie]

The problem is that for a lot of people out there, the reality of deep space maneuvering - zero-G environments, vacuums, etc - is so alien as to be unrealistic. Even if they intellectually know that's how it works, it's going to just be "Wait, what? Oh, right, deep space" and bring them out of the movie.

I'd suspect that in comparison, the number of people who have adapted to notions of zero-G environment to the point where bombs dropping in outer space tick them off is actually considerably lower. They're just very vocal online.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

God. Quote and spoilers together. This is going to get messy...

Spoiler :

But they were attached by a string of some sort and each strand was lined up in some kind of vertical rack/tube. So when the ones on the top free fall via the internal gravity of the ship, they would simply bump into the ones underneath, transferring their "downward" inertia to the ones below, thereby pushing them out at the same rate.

Yeah but we saw them fall out, and this didn't happen. They all fell out at the same rate. Unless I'm misremembering.

And TBH... at this point aren't we overthinking it a bit?... nitpicking to find fault with something that is at la minimum, plausible and in no way the least plausible thing going on in the Star Wars universe?

Well, that's a separate point entirely. If we weren't overthinking it at the point that you posted 4 separate explanations, I don't think you can say we are now.

Nah they weren't in freefall, remember? They were in a battle so everyone was moving at attack speed. The bombers were accelerating to catch up with the Dreadnought while the Dreadnought was accelerating to bring the target enemy base in range. I will cop to not knowing enough about relative gravity as related to mass or how to eyeball G-forces of falling objects to refute this.

Well okay, they were under acceleration (possibly) so not technically freefall, but they won't specifically have been under any sort of constant upwards thrust to counter the gravity of the planet, which is the only way what you describe would have happened. There'd be no point in doing that, it would be wasteful and just weird. So if anything you'd expect the bombs to fall behind or fly out in front, not drop downwards.

 

[Gori the Grey]

God. Quote and spoilers together. This is going to get messy...

So go to my other thread, where we're talking without spoilers.

 

[Takhisis]

‘Your’ other thread?

 

[Gori the Grey]

The thread I posted so that we wouldn't have to talk to each other in spoilers!

 

[Takhisis]

Spoiler :

If you call it yours you're just challening us to try and own the thread. Especially Sommerswerd.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I mean... why not just use this thread? It's not like it's a general film discussion thread, or even a general Star Wars thread, it's a thread specifically for the new Star Wars film that's just been released. What the hell is anyone doing in here if they're scared of spoilers? Basically everyone's going to go off to the new thread now and this one will die. Seems a waste of time to me.

 

[Disgustipated]

Feel free to use spoilers, don't refrain on my account. I already know what happens to Luke after reading and article on Fox news that had some tweet screenshots in it. I'm not likely to see the movie, though I may be more likely to see the movie if spoilers reveal something interesting. As it is right now, I haven't seen anything interesting enough in those spoil tags to justify seeing the movie.

 

[warpus]

Just saw it last night. Overall I found it entertaining, if weird. I wouldn't say it was good, but I also wouldn't say it was bad.

Things I didn't like:

Spoiler :

- The weird Disney humour just didn't work in a lot of places. Silly cringy one-liners made me stop and wonder WTH I am watching.
- Hux. He seemed like a caricature, not a real character. It's like they created him by watching old videos of angry Nazis screaming and said "Yes! This will be the essence of his character and there will be nothing else to it"
- Phasma was again useless. She better be a clone they keep replacing with the same moron each time she dies for some reason.
- Snoke was just a useless placeholder character to help Kylo Ren along in his journey. Can't do that with the main evil guy. Lazy writing reminiscent of Darth Maul.
- Rose. She was obviously created to give Finn something to do, as Rey was going to be preoccupied having sexual tension with somebody else. But.. Okay so she spouts off some random cheesy quotes and kisses him and all of a sudden they're in love or something? Finn feels like somebody with 0 free will throughout all this, just accepting everything that happens, almost as if he knew he had no role to play in the movie and was just happy he was there doing something.
- The mutiny felt forced. It wasn't necessary, and right after everyone's friends again. Huh?
- In fact a lot of the stuff that happened in the movie didn't really lead anywhere. Overall not much really happened. Long stretches of the movie felt like a TV episode too, much smaller in scale than the stuff we saw in the previous two movies.
- I noticed a couple times when the visuals and stage props were so poorly done and looked so amateurish that it snapped me right out of the movie and made me wonder whether they were doing it on purpose for some reason. Suspension of disbelief fail.
- I don't like how they basically wiped the slate here and set up the Star Wars universe to be ready for 20 new movies, all about the resistance/rebels who have hope who are standing up against the bad guys. The whole story arc from the end of episode 6 to the end of episode 8 - what a convoluted way to set up the stage for the next couple trilogies. I would have loved to have had more meat in the story in this trilogy, and not have the whole thing being used as a plot device to get us to episode 9 and 10 and beyond. Essentially they figured out a way to get a new bad guy in power that we cared about (Kylo Ren), a new Jedi-like person to lead the good guys, who we also care about (Rey), an interesting relationship between them, and all the old characters are now retired or in the process of retiring. You need 3 movies to do all that? Hopefully episode 9 has some twists that add a bit of meat to this whole trilogy. As of now this whole thing feels like filler, a big setup for the next couple trilogies.
- So Leia is still alive? I guess they didn't want to address her death in this movie, so I guess in the next one her death will be acknowledged in passing in some way? How cheap.
- The speeders with the red salt backdrop - what was the plan once they reached that big gun? They didn't seem to have a plan or even any weapons on board.
- There was no other exit out of that cave fo sho.. but then.. there was? This was their base, wasn't it? Why wouldn't they have had the whole cave system mapped out? Lazy writing
- I didn't like the whole useless part of the plot that revolved around the casino and the code breaker. I guess they added this whole part because it looked cool and needed something for Finn to do?
- I really really wanted more character development for Finn. But they had him doing filler stuff and not advancing his character at all.

Things I did like:

Spoiler :

- Snoke dying caught me by surprise, I figured he would stick around until the next movie.
- I dug Snoke's robe.
- Loved when Kylo and Rey teamed up and battled together, caught me by surprise too.
- I liked the tribute to Leia, when she swims through space or whatever she did. I don't like that she stayed alive until the end, but I did like that whole sequence. It seemed fitting and appropriate as a tribute somehow.
- I liked the role Luke played and most of his lines, as well as the sort of conclusion of his story.
- I liked Snoke's throne room. Great use of colour and I'm very happy we got to see a battle go down there.
- Overall I get that the slate needed to be reset. But do it in 1 movie, don't take the whole damn trilogy to do it sheesh

Some problems in this movie, but I did enjoy it overall. Like I said it wasn't good, it wasn't bad, but it was entertaining.

I read that the porgs or whatever they're called were added to mask birds that live on Luke's island. They were getting in the way of some of the shooting, so they decided to just cover them up with similar looking aliens. I didn't mind them overall, if they seemed a bit annoying.

 

[Lexicus]

I mean... to paraphrase Yoda... ""Believability, heh, physics, heh, a Star Wars fan craves not, these things."

This is too funny. I can hear it perfectly in Yoda's voice too.