The Lost Battle (Deity AW)

[Manco Capac]

Promise I'll play tomorrow. For some reason, after finishing VoiceOfUnreason's OCC conquest game, I got a down (like all games I finish ) ...like...I wander on the forums for 2 hours without doing something intelligent but trolling...

Tomorrow, after a good night for rebooting my brain, I'll start playing this monster.

 

[Manco Capac]

Ok, I made my first attempt. Given the AW nature of the game and we're charismatic, I thought that would be cool to create two enslavers and start stealing workers to hasten the starting game. But the layout seems to favor retreat and hope we meet the AI later than a usual pangaea. Wink at Kossin for his gentle donation of stone in the most perfect place that could ever be: on a hill and the city culture will connect it to the capital easily. I know that's WB in (or pigs) because the normalizer never put two high graded resources (low graded are like dyes, silks, wines, etc.) next to each other.

I went fishing ==> Hunting ==> BW ==> AH (but retreated for Archery, my mistake)

I went warrior first and then a WB (5 turns) and then a worker.
I stole a worker to the blue one.
Sadly my third warrior got killed and a barb city spawned at the worse place it could ever be: next to my stone location. Thus, I have to retry, but with a classical play instead.

Sigh.

 

[Revent]

Okay, my version of the save:

Spoiler :

I ended up going for Fishing, Agriculture, Mysticism, Masonry. Currently researching AH and the gold just came online.

City build: Warrior, Workboat, Worker, Warrior, Settler (5 turns to go).

I lost one warrior so far to a barb warrior which sucked because he was fog busting. TGW needs to be built sooner rather than later so straight after settler, I'm going to build that. I've managed to steal one worker, but he's on the other end of the map so somehow, will need to get him across to us

Images:








Checking your save out now Tachy. Waiting for Rolo and then we can see which one is worth continuing. BTW, I did say 12 turns but it's all good for now I think the game needed a bigger push than 12

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok, my take

Gone Agri->Hunting->AH ( for horses that aren't there, apparently :/ )->Fishing->BW ( ETA in 5t ). I built a worker and two warriors ( currently making settler, ETA in 4t ), with one currently fogbusting to the east. With the collaboration of a American scout and a barb archer ( that looks that killed a aztec unit that made contact with us ( but that I never saw ) ) one of those warriors is woodie II. Besides the already mentioned AI foes , I also have a egyptian archer in line of sight at the save .

>>Save here<<​

 

[Revent]

okay, looking at the saves now. Not sure which save looks in the best position though

I THINK it'll have to be from mine or rolo's save because of that extreme bad luck with that barb city in Tachy's city. I'll need input here btw so if you guys don't mind....

 

[kossin]

Wink at Kossin for his gentle donation of stone in the most perfect place that could ever be: on a hill and the city culture will connect it to the capital easily.

Yep, that was from WB. Stone was initially in BFC (it was a CRAZY capital, 3 seafoods plus what you currently see)... so I actually toned it down quite a bit . OTOH, you now have a great 2nd city location...

Good luck!

 

[r_rolo1]

TBH I would choose Tachy save with no discussion if there wasn't that black shadow NW of his starting spot That is a major issue, unfortunately ...

Mine and revent saves are pretty similar . He explored more than me and we have similar tech choices and builds. He had the unluck of losing a warrior while I kept it and got to woodie II ( Tachy also has one, that has done a fine work messing up the AI ). I am not convinced by Myst so soon ( we have other priorities and we are still not constricted by ), but it is a choice ( like the one I made to go AH ASAP just not to find horsies If I knew I would had gone BW to chop out stuff ).

IN the end, I would probably pick mine or revent save. Tachy one is better overall, except for the nasty detail of having no decent spot for city #2 and a barb city that will be a PITA to take ( if the AI will not get it first , that would be a major bummer ). Between mine and revent ... well, IMHO toss a coin

 

[Revent]

Yes, Tachy's save is easily the best save except for that bad luck on the barb city.

PS, I do also have a Woods II warrior which I just stole a worker with.

My logic for Myst was that incase we decide to go for TO, we will have Myst ready AND it gives a discount on Masonry But in hindsight, that may not have been a wise option as I guess it only saves two turns for Masonry

Tachy, your opinion will be the deciding matter on this one

 

[Manco Capac]

After seeing Revent's save, I was tempted to try a rigged start where I could kill a lion for an immediate W2 warrior and attack the nearest neighbour in the north. Yeah, I did not suspected there was one there. And that is the most logical one to get workers and ferry them fast to the capital. Nonetheless, after 10 attempts, well, RNG said to me to eat grass and play fair.

But, I admit, this start is starting to scare me. It's not an awesome sport when we look at it. We lose lotsa space for desert, two passageway for the AI's to attack (although one is easily blockable by unit walling), few cotteagable lands.

Not only AW is extremely hard, but that start seems making it harder.

I really wished we could handicap ourselves a bit with a small gamble at 50% for a fast W2 warrior and get many workers for free. That way, maybe a shot for both GW and GLH(or Mids) will be feasible.

Generally speaking, I prefer the path fishing (while growing to size two with a warrior)==>BW==>Hunting==>Masonry/Archery/AH.
Anyways, I wish to avoid agriculture for a moment because it's a small diversion...and still a diversion short term even in AW we everything is needed to be self-teched.

 

[Manco Capac]

No I have rethought the strategy. I don't know if the GLH is that powerful even though most cities are gonna be coastal. We won't ever get foreign trade routes (but that island can boost our research).

Knowing the usual Oracle-->CoL to get a religion.

I think getting MC fast is an interesting move for the colossus (do we have copper, don't recall). We have poor land for cottages, but we may boost coast to get super coast at least.

GW and Mids seem the best ATM.

Another point: we should try to avoid AI contact with most of them and not trying to explore early that far. At least, those late AI's in the party agaisnt the human won't start to gather an army towards us.
One thing is sure about AW, more AI's translate to harder settings. AW shucks is somehow hard because we are at war with 15 AI's and by the time goes, more AI's are getting sufficiently advanced to send annoying stacks.

For instance, if that was an AW with 2-3 AI's, deity AW would be much much easier and feasible. I wonder if we should have tried that way before.

Kossin & co. are extremely trained players who know what they are doing compared to us and had practices with hard deity games and earlier shots with AW IMM and deity. Especially having Snaaty must have helped by a long stretch.

 

[Revent]

I'm looking at the map now, based on all of our saves and:

GLH doesn't seem to be AS powerful as it could be normally. One, we don't get foreign TR's and two, most of our coastal locations are junk in the western desert. However, we do know it WILL pay off AND allow us to keep expanding whilst maintaining our economy pre currency. BTW, interesting thing if we build GLH, settle on the cow and 1E of the marble on the island. Once we have three mainland cities, both of these cities will give 6cpt each and the mainland cities will give 5cpt each which is 27cpt. That more than doubles our commerce right now even with gold.

Pyramids seems to be a reasonable option to boost us in the early game, but it is an investment of 250 hammers. We do have happiness sorted for now. 4 base, 1 from Cha, 1 from Monument, 1 from gold, 1 from ivory. A forge will increase the happiness by 1 to 9 and a religion will further help. Happiness seems to be not MUCH of an issue here. But the research bonus still stands but will it be worth it? Plus, happiness shouldn't be an issue anyway. Bear in mind, Monarchy is a preq for Feud so we want it sooner rather than later.

The Colossus is also an option worth considering. Hopefully Kossin has placed some copper near us so that it is something we can consider. Fin with TC can make coastal tiles very powerful (6 yield tiles, 2f4c) so it's an instant free commerce really. We could build this with GLH and go for an ICS style spam of cities. Focus on health and production in the cities and each coastal tile would feed itself.

More verbal spam coming with images in a minute.

 

[Revent]

Image:

Spoiler :

Now, we have two points where the AI can be attacking us from, the north and the west. Early in the game, I don't think we can afford the city in the image above so what we can do is for now, we can block that route with two warriors and keep our units in stone city. But later on, build a city there, and a fort on that tile and blockade the other path with just a warrior.

ALSO, I want to bring to notice Seoul. I have an idea in mind for it, it's a hill city so we could possibly keep it as well. What we can do is let Pacal (Koreans) capture that city at one point, use seige and our units to destroy his stack and then use the same (now promoted) units to take Seoul and possibly any other cities that are to be taken.

 

[Manco Capac]

In fort city you presently noted, we can place two other warriors later, one SW of Wheat and and the second one south of the first.

That way it only let fort city as only target for the AI and if too much defended, the stacks won't roam around much and at least not next to the unit wall.

 

[Manco Capac]

No one is interested by the small scenario attack lion and go north to roam around yellow AI for easy workers?

More workers would give us a chance. I'll comply if not acceptable.

 

[Revent]

I don't feel strongly for doing it again because we now have significant map knowledge but if rolo wishes, we could do that. But having said that, Rolo and I also both have a woods II warrior in each of our saves so perhaps you could abuse the AI there?

Regarding the fort city, I was thinking of placing a city as the BFC indicates, BUT if by chance, an AI stack decides to wander that fort can be filled with defenders to block all routes to our mainland which we can then develop properly. We could probably even put a galley on the lake to transport defending units as we please depending on the requirements and the direction of the AI stack.

 

[Revent]

Come on guys (aimed at Tachy), some input on which save to continue with would be great!

 

[Manco Capac]

Ok, I have restarted with only one conceded gamble: get a lion and kill it at 50%. The rest is done at the best of my knowledge. Ah, even a deity AI is soooo lame!

Here's a serie of screenshots. No other attempt can be more ideal than this one.

Fishing>BW>Hunting>Masonry>AH>Archery>We'll see; oracle route?

Only thing: da warrior was so unnerving. I had my first settler out so fast but I settled my second city so late because of that dancing jerk.
Anyways, we got the GW and that is the most critical.
2 cities, GW, some warriors, an annoying barb city that might fall AI SoD's passing by , 4 workers, an terribly angry cathy.


I know going after a lion in order to get 100% chance of +4XP is lame to some standards, but this is DEITY AW. This is no a cup of tea. Myself, for once, I'm trembling besides thoses ogling AI's.

 

[Manco Capac]

Come on guys (aimed at Tachy), some input on which save to continue with would be great!

I hope what I give now is better. We have something on which we can work.

 

[Revent]

Okay, that's acceptable I guess.

The save looks great. I don't think I'll have a chance to play until Tuesday though so if Rolo wants to pick it up from here, great.

Anyway, I hope the Mids are a placeholder for now, not sure if it is what we want to build quite yet.

Some food for thought:
-Stone city needs a wall sooner rather than later. (Make sure we don't waste hammers and stuff, I remember a vague mention of some bug or something?)

-Does the AI still choose the longer route around if our warrior is blocking the way even if it doesn't know the map fully? For example, an AI on the east may not know of the route to our land via the west, but will it still try to take that way?

-Third city, when do we want to get our third city up? I'm personally thinking sooner (like build third settler now) and then go for Copper city (settle on the plains hill?).

-Wonders, do we want to go for Oracle MC? That looks really powerful to me on this map. Also, I still think GLH would be a great source of passive commerce on this map and we could city spam with our chokepoints so not all cities would need to be on hills.

-Warrior Micro, we have two woods II atm. What do we want to do with them? Continue choking I guess? Anything specific in mind? I'd like to meet our final AI as well so he can start doing war prep instead of focusing on expansion

-Worker Micro, What do we want to do with our 5 workers?

-Tech Path, this ultimately depends on what we want to do with the game. Do we want to go GLH, or Oracle or even try for both or even Mids? One option is to go Sailing, one city builds GLH, another builds a galley and a settler/ Settle the island city, hook up the marble, go for a one turn oracle by pre chopping everything. With co-ordination, it is easily possible That way, we don't invest any hammers into it without actually getting it

 

[Manco Capac]

Stone city needs a wall sooner rather than later. (Make sure we don't waste hammers and stuff, I remember a vague mention of some bug or something?)

I think we can wait on the wall until we some army coming by. Indeed, we have good multipliers enough to make a wall fast.

Does the AI still choose the longer route around if our warrior is blocking the way even if it doesn't know the map fully? For example, an AI on the east may not know of the route to our land via the west, but will it still try to take that way?

My experience tells me as long we leave a route open, the AI will take that route. Otherwise, will pierce through trenches to get to the target city. And the AI needs to know where are the cities to target those. One reason I don't want to explore that far. The hidden AI may DoW one of his friend, leaving us in peace for a moment.

Spoiler :

-Third city, when do we want to get our third city up? I'm personally thinking sooner (like build third settler now) and then go for Copper city (settle on the plains hill?).

Given it's very feasible to block the passage from invading units. I think it's better to settle it in a far better location than inland PH. Checked. Yeah, it's inland. I would say 2E of the fish spot is nice. And this let possibility to settle more cities at the east part of the peninsula.

Wonders, do we want to go for Oracle MC? That looks really powerful to me on this map. Also, I still think GLH would be a great source of passive commerce on this map and we could city spam with our chokepoints so not all cities would need to be on hills.

I would not oracle MC although best for ensured Colossus and cost effective. I would go CoL. Because we prolly won't get a religion through the whole game. Grabbing a religion in AW is always strong for many reasons, one of which is the -40% discount for possessing the holy city and not the pagan (different state religion) target AI.

I stopped my game with Mysticism because Oracling CoL should be next goal before the AI grabs it.

Warrior Micro, we have two woods II atm. What do we want to do with them? Continue choking I guess? Anything specific in mind? I'd like to meet our final AI as well so he can start doing war prep instead of focusing on expansion

Catherine (yellow civ) has settled copper city. We may continue to choke and snatch workers trying to improve that copper. Later she starts metal units, later are the rushes.

-Worker Micro, What do we want to do with our 5 workers?

They are never enough workers if they are free. Many stuff can be done. Prepping basic improvements (mines, farm, cottages), pre-chop, some well-located roads. And more. 5 workers by 2000 BC is a huge huge advantage believe me.

Tech Path, this ultimately depends on what we want to do with the game. Do we want to go GLH, or Oracle or even try for both or even Mids? One option is to go Sailing, one city builds GLH, another builds a galley and a settler/ Settle the island city, hook up the marble, go for a one turn oracle by pre chopping everything. With co-ordination, it is easily possible That way, we don't invest any hammers into it without actually getting it

Settling the marble city for a one turn oracle is a doable thing. If failing, we go for Mids instead. Now, our focus should go for the oracle. Mids can wait. If we are lucky, this can wait until 500 BC. After the oracle beeline, we may ponder Sailing. GLH on a pangaea map can sometimes go by 500 BC.

An important point. I forgot to target an AI for our EP points. We shall target Pacal II. So typical of him to tech fast.