The Luchuirp

[loki1232]

Kael and I have been working on the Luchuirp.
However, we haven't gotten anything conclusive, so here are all of the ideas we've been discussing. Please comment on them and add your own.

Golems. These guys will be the mainstay of the Luchuirp army. I'm thinking that most if not all of the Luchuirp t4 units will be golems. These guys would be differentiated by strength, and also starting bonuses. For example, what if each mana node gave golems a promotion? This would make them stronger, or give other bonuses.

Some more golem ideas:
An ability allowing you to combine two golems of the same type into a new one with increased strength.

A golem that acted as a familiar for archmages. (familiars are linked to specific archmages and allow the archmages to cast spells "through" the familiars, thus increasing their range. The caster must be in a city and use an ability to start casting through their familiar. ie: a fireball casting by a "trance" archmage would appear on the same square as their familiar.

On a different topic, I have another ideas:
a) The Luchuirp are able to produce magical "items" in the form of resources. Scattered throughout the techtree would be maybe 8 different chances for
them to "create" some enchanted resources (a luchurip only wonder would produce them) For example, with astronomy they could build a wonder (pretty cheaply) that gave them the "Ship's Clock' (a device used to accurately measure time and speed, thus needed to navigate accurately.) It would require water mana as well as enchantment. This would give 3 of the ship's clock's resources, each giving "All ships start with navigation I". Of course, tradeable to other civs. (i know that ship's clock is a lame example, but if you like this idea i'm sure we can think of more interesting resources.)

What if each golem got a starting bonus based on the mana nodes you controlled?

They can destroy improved mana nodes with golems that can then be used to build a building in a luchurip city that gives 2 of that node.

Or by bringing a golem to a mana node it can upgrade itself. Maybe getting a slight strength bonus plus a bonus based on the node?
Or perhaps golems on mana node (or cities with mana nodes from my earlier suggestion) could cast the level 1 sor spell of that sphere.
Maybe golems could "improve" raw mana into sphere mana?
What if two golems of the same type could merge into another with 1.5*times the strength? Only on a mana node maybe?
Or perhaps whena golem died in combat it could be revived in the next few turns by a Luchurip spellcaster?

Perhaps ancient temples could have a different function for the Luchuirp than anyone else. Instead of giving all the adepts combat I, it could give all the golems combat one?

Thanks for the help.

 

[woodelf]

I guess for me to be of any help I need to ask....are golems animated stuff or machines? If they are living breathing things then re-animation after death would be a different feature. If they are machine then we might be going steampunk, but that would give the Luichurp some kick. Copper, Iron, Steel, ect golems that get defeated could be fixed by engineers or scrapped for spare parts somehow? Maybe defeated units can be transported back to have something done with them?

It kind of sounds, after reading your comments, that you're trying real hard to make these guys fun/unique. Maybe trying too hard? I can see mana being a factor if these guys are being animated in a magician's shop. I'm just not sure how yet...

 

[Kael]

I guess for me to be of any help I need to ask....are golems animated stuff or machines? If they are living breathing things then re-animation after death would be a different feature. If they are machine then we might be going steampunk, but that would give the Luichurp some kick. Copper, Iron, Steel, ect golems that get defeated could be fixed by engineers or scrapped for spare parts somehow? Maybe defeated units can be transported back to have something done with them?

It kind of sounds, after reading your comments, that you're trying real hard to make these guys fun/unique. Maybe trying too hard? I can see mana being a factor if these guys are being animated in a magician's shop. I'm just not sure how yet...

They are enchanters, so the golems are dead objects animated by magic. They aren't steampunk but are the closest we have to machinists, inventors and tinkers.

You may be right abotu trying to hard ot make them fun. We dont need a big flashy mechanic, but we do need something to differentiate them. Right now we have the golems (which is more of a penalty than a bonus) and the buildings that grant promotions to their golems (which are cool but could probably be improved).

I want the Luchuirp to support a different play style (in the end thats the goal for each of the civs, that they play different). The Luchurip should be the opposite of the Doviello, where the Doviello can skip buildings and go straight to their units, the Luchuirp should have a heavy reliance on their city buildings. They should be the closest we have to a "build your own unit" function. And if we want to test Colonization type mechanics this is the civ to do it in.

 

[woodelf]

If you want the Luchuirp to have a heavy reliance on buildings why not also give them more bonuses when creating buildings? If they need specific buildings to make their golems then make it cheaper to make the buildings if they have certain resources. Right now it costs an arm and a leg to build the prereq buildings and then even more for the golem than normal units. If you pick a resource (Ancient Temple, mana, an ore) and give them 50% cost reduction on buildings that would ease the cost of the buildings.

I don't know, off the top of my head, the various buildings they need, but I would think you could dangle a carrot in front of the players and AI by giving this sort of bonus if they have resources. No other civ gets this cheap building potential so it might make them more unique?

 

[wilboman]

I like Woodelf's idea of making buildings cheaper with resources, I think maybe Body Mana or Earth Mana would be good resources to make Golem-producing buildings cheaper.

A thought: What if golems healed a little bit when a golem in their stack gets killed, and when they pillaged an improvement, kind of like sticking bits that have fallen off on again?

 

[woodelf]

I like Woodelf's idea of making buildings cheaper with resources, I think maybe Body Mana or Earth Mana would be good resources to make Golem-producing buildings cheaper.

Good examples.

A thought: What if golems healed a little bit when a golem in their stack gets killed, and when they pillaged an improvement, kind of like sticking bits that have fallen off on again?

Maybe a new promotion for a magic user that if he is accompanying a golem and this happens the golem does heal? Instead of Medic you get Re-animation I and II? I'm not sure the golems themselves should be able to do it. But if the AI can't figure it out to have the mage alongside then having the golem get that ability would be a good compromise.

 

[Chalid]

Here some random idears of me:

-How about giving an unique golem workshop to the lurchip that is available much earlier

-as Loki said, more different golem types. Eg: Wooden Golem that has the drowns ability to water walk. A golem for each of the mineralic resources stone/marple,copper,iron,gems are in, gold is missing (that one could be a spellcaster, or completly immume to magic). A pearl golem (yes you have to trade them).

-Access to mithril could give a free promotion to the iron golem.

-Furthermore the customization options of the lurchip should be further increased.
Standard buildings could upgrade the golems. For example the siege workshop could give the bombard ability to golems. The blacksmith could give a combat promotion. And so forth.

- some more different upgradebuildings for the Lurchip Golem Workshop would also be nice. Those upgrades could give: Regeneration (March,+10%Heal), CityDefense

-Maybe a uniqe Lurchip T4 spellcaster (national unit or even worls unit) that starts with graft flesh.

-Uniqe Spell that allows combination of golems with living units.

 

[woodelf]

Here some random idears of me:

-How about giving an unique golem workshop to the lurchip that is available much earlier

Brilliant! I think they should start with a basic builder shop very early as well. Maybe some cheap early golems that aren't very good. (Shows an attempt to learn how to manufacture/create a golem.) Are buildings upgradeable in FfH? If so this one could upgrade to the real golem workshop or at least lower the cost somehow.

-as Loki said, more different golem types. Eg: Wooden Golem that has the drowns ability to water walk. A golem for each of the mineralic resources stone/marple,copper,iron,gems are in, gold is missing (that one could be a spellcaster, or completly immume to magic). A pearl golem (yes you have to trade them).

If you have wooden then I would think Fire would get a healthy bonus on them. Same with lightning on the ores. (Do we have a lightning spell?). Also we could make it real complicated and have stone/marble get bonuses against blade weapons, but now hammers. I'm thinking the blades will bounce off, but hammers could crack the golems. Far fetched, but we're brainstorming!

-Furthermore the customization options of the lurchip should be further increased.
Standard buildings could upgrade the golems. For example the siege workshop could give the bombard ability to golems. The blacksmith could give a combat promotion. And so forth.

Nice ideas.

 

[Corlindale]

I like the idea of customization of golems through city improvements. So golem doesn't level, but instead get a set amount of promotions right when they are built, depending on which improvements existed in the city at the time.

I think we could have some of the basic buildings increase their general power in some areas(Forge = combat I, for example), while more specialized powers(spells, bombardment) will be obtained from various upgrades to the Golem Workshop, which will in many, but not all, cases exclude eachother, so you can't make one city the über-golem workshop. One city might specialize in creating fast, lightly equipped golems with some magickal powers, while others focus on brute force, with large and lumbering killing machines. It would also make the decision about where to build The Mithril Golem an interesting one.

 

[Kael]

Sounds good, so we just need the specifics. So far we have:

1. Mud Golem (replaces worker)- Worker
2. Stone Golem (replaces axeman)- basic attacker
3. Iron Golem (replaces pikeman)- improved attacker
4. Nullstone Golem (replaces shieldwall)- immune to magic
5. Arcane Golem (replaces sparatoi)- powered by entropy, summons imps

Adding in your ideas we could go to:

1. Mud Golem (replaces worker)
2. Wood Golem (replaces axeman)- vulnerable to fire, doesnt require any resources (i don't like giving them water walking as we already have enough stuff that does that)
3. Gargoyle (replaces pikeman, requires stone or marble)
4. Iron Golem (replaces maceman, requires iron)
5. Nullstone Golem (replaces shieldwall, requires stone or marble)- immune to magic
6. Arcane Golem (replaces sparatoi, requires stone or marble)- powered by entropy, summons imps
7. Bone Golem (replaces immortal, requires ivory)- need a flavor mechanic
8. Clockwork Golem (replaces berserker, requires iron, machinery tech and machinests shop)- powerful but has a chance of breaking down each turn and being unuseable for anything but defense

Outside of the Luchuirp we also have the:

1. Copper Golem- golem available for everyone.
2. Flesh Golem- created by the Graft Flesh spell.
3. Runeguard (requires gems)- Runes of Kilmorph unit

Current buildings are:

1. Blasting Workshop- gives the ability to cast Fireball to all golems made here, requires fire mana
2. Armament Molds- gives the Heavy promotion (increased iCombat, decreased move)
3. Velox Workshop- decreased iCombat, increased move, slight withdrawal chance


Based on this thread we could add:

1. Blasting Workshop- gives the ability to cast Fireball to all golems made here, requires fire mana
2. Armament Molds- gives the Heavy promotion (increased iCombat, decreased move)
3. Velox Workshop- decreased iCombat, increased move, slight withdrawal chance
4. Forge- Combat I promotion for free if a Forge is present
5. ?- Building that gives City Defense?
6. ?- Building that gives the Guardman promotion?
7. Assembly Halls- Buildling that boosts golem production?
8. ?- Early golem workshop

 

[Corlindale]

Hmm... a Bone Golem requires the Boneworks(Or Bonewerkz, if someone's played Abe's Exodus...) building, which gives unhealthiness and unhappiness, but the golem is quite powerful, and may be able to use Death Magic/Empowered somehow if you have a Death Node. Or perhaps that's a bit too evil for the Luchuirp?

Buildings for golems:

Assembly Halls: +40% golem production, but all other golem promotion buildings are blocked.

Animated Walls: City Garrison promotion

Chemical Workshop: Golems are slightly weaker, but spreads the "poisoned" condition to stacks they attack, and also gives small health degeneration to living units sharing their tile.

Caverns of Arcane Craftsmanship(I really suck at names... ): Golems get the basic spell for each mana node in your control, just like a newly trained adept would. They can't aquire the more powerful spells.


Another possible feature would be to add an "Engineer" unit to the Luchuirp. These would be in charge of golem maintenance, and might be able to confer certain bonuses to golems in the form of temporary promotions, as well as performing field repair, increasing heal rate(perhaps remove natural healing completely from golems, and make engineers the only way to do it? While realistic, that might be too annoying...). Engineers should be very weak in direct combat, useless without their golem protectors. They might also be needed to rewind the Clockwork Golem.

 

[wilboman]

Possibly we could reserve the "Repair yourself" effect for the Bone Golem, but allow him to repair himself from all units killed near him, not just other Golems? Basically, he takes bits of defeated foes and friends alike, and fixes himself up with them.

Oh, just one more thing I thought about, unless someone's already pointed it out: the Mud Golem is much, much slower to build since it doesn't eat food, that gives the Luichurp an early-game disadvantage that seems rather unwarranted. Maybe decrease the shield cost of Mud Golems? After all, they're pretty easy to make. Either that, or give them a defence value, so there is some point to the extra cost.

 

[woodelf]

That's a good start on making these guys more unique. Let's see how they play now.

 

[loki1232]

A couple a comments/questions/ideas/sarcastic remarks.

1. What if the mud golem replaced the warrior instead of the worker. It would still work at double the speed, but would be combat as well. The Luchuirp could build workers like anyone else, but perhaps with a national limit? Or perhaps no workers? Just mud golems?
2. Iron golems. I really like these guys so i think they deserve a spot. How about as golems available to all?
3. What about having gargoyles in as golems? I think of them as very similar to golems. Perhaps some gargoyles could be included as a UU with a large city defense bonus?
4. for buildings: I like the forge thing.
-How about a building that gives all golems spellcsting abilities? One that makes them start with chanelling one. They would gain no experience, so start with the spells they have apon building. That would make mana nodes more important for the Luchuirp. Can't think of a name but i like the mechanic.
-Soul Foundry (a place where they take souls from victims and put them in the golems to make them more powerful). Only useable by evil Luchuirp civs. Golems built in this city can gain XP (and promotions).
-Consecration altar (a building that is opposite soul foundry). Only buildable by good Luchuirp civs. Golems start with demon slaying promotion and blessed.
5. There is a limit of two golem buildings per city. One two have been built no more can be.

What do you'all think?

Ooops just noticed that corindale just posted the idea about the spellcasting golems. Drat! Oh well, great minds think alike.

 

[woodelf]

I like gargoyles and I like the 2 golem buildings per city as well.

I like the rest, but those two things stand out.

 

[C.Roland]

I like gargoyles and I like the 2 golem buildings per city as well.

I like the rest, but those two things stand out.

Gargoyles would be nice but we have to ask Chalid if he can make a new model, i think he's the only one (with Kael) that is able to do a nice complex animated creature.

It would be nice if he can make a stand animation of a flying gargoyle and a fortify position on ground in his "stone" form like this


We can also reskin and resize a dragon for a temporary solution.

BTW : After all the dragons skins, the lizardman and maybe after some dwarf, i'll probably start to work on a new golem model

 

[wilboman]

A couple a comments/questions/ideas/sarcastic remarks.

1. What if the mud golem replaced the warrior instead of the worker. It would still work at double the speed, but would be combat as well. The Luchuirp could build workers like anyone else, but perhaps with a national limit? Or perhaps no workers? Just mud golems?

Uhm, yeah, I probably should have noticed that Mud Golems improve twice as fast. Ignore my last post

 

[loki1232]

Btw, I think that Bone golem's flavor mechanic should be healing when any other golems in the nearby squares dies.

 

[Kael]

Btw, I think that Bone golem's flavor mechanic should be healing when any other golems in the nearby squares dies.

Other golems or living units? It seems like a Bone Golem wouldn't have much to salvage from the body of an iron golem, but the bones of a troop of soldiers might be pretty tasty.

 

[Kael]

Hmm... a Bone Golem requires the Boneworks(Or Bonewerkz, if someone's played Abe's Exodus...) building, which gives unhealthiness and unhappiness, but the golem is quite powerful, and may be able to use Death Magic/Empowered somehow if you have a Death Node. Or perhaps that's a bit too evil for the Luchuirp?

Buildings for golems:

Assembly Halls: +40% golem production, but all other golem promotion buildings are blocked.

I like the function but I dont like that it blocks other golem buildings (it forces players to remember to build it last). This building should be pretty expensive though.

Remember the fun of playing the luchuirp is to build these cities that are sutffed full of buildings. They are for our builder players (and are the oppositie of the doviello players who want to skip city infrastrucutre entirely and get straight to the units) and we dont want to limit their ability to build.

Animated Walls: City Garrison promotion

Chemical Workshop: Golems are slightly weaker, but spreads the "poisoned" condition to stacks they attack, and also gives small health degeneration to living units sharing their tile.

I have thought about poison a few times but im having trouble coming up with a different mechanic for it than disease. Maybe I will give it a chance to wear off every turn (and of course it wouldn't spread through combat like disease?).

Caverns of Arcane Craftsmanship(I really suck at names... ): Golems get the basic spell for each mana node in your control, just like a newly trained adept would. They can't aquire the more powerful spells.

We have this at a greatly reduced rate on the Arcane Golem. The Arcane Golem can summon imps. Imps gain random spells, so effectivly the arcane golem has access to a wide range of spells. I thought about making it more as you suggest but I think it becomes unbalancing.

Another possible feature would be to add an "Engineer" unit to the Luchuirp. These would be in charge of golem maintenance, and might be able to confer certain bonuses to golems in the form of temporary promotions, as well as performing field repair, increasing heal rate(perhaps remove natural healing completely from golems, and make engineers the only way to do it? While realistic, that might be too annoying...). Engineers should be very weak in direct combat, useless without their golem protectors. They might also be needed to rewind the Clockwork Golem.

I love the flavor, but like you say the function would require micromanagement. Maybe Chalid could slip an animation on the Clockwork Golem where a dwarf winds him up before he moves.