[BTS] The lumbermill

[Oaq]

The forum includes some old threads on the topic of lumbermills, but the better among those threads predate Beyond the Sword (BTS), so I'd like to ask again now. Assume emperor-level play.

Chop, chop, chop has been the advice. Fair enough. I get it. If you chop every last twig and stump down to the ground before 1 AD, then lumbermills are a moot point.

But suppose that for various reasons some forests survive past 1 AD. Suppose further that available workers after 1 AD are chiefly occupied at the task of clearing jungles; and that, by the time the last jungle is cleared, Replaceable Parts is in research. Quantitatively, if a free-market rather than state-property strategy is aimed at, the lumbermill looks to me like as good an improvement as any. I cannot see the point of workshops without state property and the caste system, after all. Towns are better than lumbermills, but towns are not for every tile of every city, especially production-oriented cities.

Yet one gathers that the experts still dislike lumbermills. Why, please?

 

[sampsa]

What you describe is a rather bizarre scenario. In general, state property is game-changingly good and free market is competitive only if you are able to get mining+sushi. Under SP there is no contest - workshops/(watermills) triumph. As I understand a railroaded rp lumbermill is 23. I mean it's not horrible, it's just that the alternatives are nearly always better. At biology a farm is suddenly 4 which is better in general, especially for smaller cities. Bonus for saving the forests might or might not be useful, but not chopping the forest also means having 30 less.

Perhaps someone who plays Terra maps aiming to win space can give a more complete answer.

 

[Oaq]

What you describe is a rather bizarre scenario.

I did not know that.

In general, state property is game-changingly good and free market is competitive only if you are able to get mining+sushi.

I have targeted mining+cereal mills.

Perhaps someone who plays Terra maps aiming to win space can give a more complete answer.

I have never played a Terra map. (I did not even know what it was until you mentioned it and I looked it up.)

 

[sampsa]

I did not know that.

I mean, pretty much only on Terra should you have access to a lot of forest at RP. I don't know why your workers are chopping jungle when they could be chopping wood to get stuff done faster. Also, probably not enough workers?

 

[Oaq]

Also, probably not enough workers?

Five cities, four workers. Eight cities, five workers. Something like that.

If you have more, then what do you do with them once they've improved everything that can be improved? Isn't it better just to keep abreast of your cities' growth by improving extra tiles when the extra population is available to work the tiles?

I don't know why your workers are chopping jungle when they could be chopping wood to get stuff done faster.

To answer the question, I have no reason but the immediately apparent one: unimproved jungles are useless; unimproved forests are not.

(I am glad that experts will take the time to answer my questions, but it seems that all my questions end up with the same answer: chop more! I don't even doubt that the answer is optimal, but since I do not automatically prefer to chop every twig and stump in sight, maybe I have not yet advanced far enough to benefit from the answers.)

 

[sampsa]

Five cities, four workers. Eight cities, five workers. Something like that.

When you need to clear jungle, that's very low. Before that it can be fine, depends on the amount of forest and worked water tiles.

If you have more, then what do you do with them once they've improved everything that can be improved?

Sleep or delete if you are really sure there is no more use for them.

Isn't it better just to keep abreast of your cities' growth by improving extra tiles when the extra population is available to work the tiles?

In general you shouldn't grow to work weak/unimproved tiles though, perhaps that's the clearest indication of when you have too few workers.

To answer the question, I have no reason but the immediately apparent one: unimproved jungles are useless; unimproved forests are not.

I would say unimproved jungle is more useless than unimproved forest. Neither one is really worth working or growing for.

(I am glad that experts will take the time to answer my questions, but it seems that all my questions end up with the same answer: chop more! I don't even doubt that the answer is optimal, but since I do not automatically prefer to chop every twig and stump in sight, maybe I have not yet advanced far enough to benefit from the answers.)

"Chop more" isn't the only advice I'd give you. Some more would be "expand quickly", "don't work unimproved tiles", "build enough workers", "whip", "don't build a lot of buildings"...

 

[Oaq]

One player who thinks my scenario bizarre has answered. I believe that

• he has greater skill than I,
• he recommends against my play style, and
  
• my scenario is unlikely to occur given his play style.

However, to emulate his play style is not my goal, nor (in this particular thread) have I asked how to do that, so my original question stands, in case any other player on board would like to answer it.

 

[Oaq]

By the way, @sampsa, for me to express my appreciation repeatedly for your good advice grows tiresome for everybody, so I'll spare you that this time; but for what it's worth, your advice has indeed impacted my play. I have been doing more of the things you have recommended, usually with better results than before. Nevertheless, I still have some questions which lie outside your apparent domain of interest. The lumbermill question is one of those.

Meanwhile, if you judge a question like the lumbermill question to be so ill-founded that it admits no sensible answer even at the modest emperor level of difficulty, then I have not yet ascended to the requisite tier of enlightenment to share your judgment. The lumbermill question thus stands.

 

[sampsa]

Meanwhile, if you judge a question like the lumbermill question to be so ill-founded that it admits no sensible answer even at the modest emperor level of difficulty, then I have not yet ascended to the requisite tier of enlightenment to share your judgment.

I don't really think there are stupid questions. What I do think though is that you asking the question reveals sub-optimal choices you make and that leads you to ask the particular question. We can call those sub-optimal choices style, but I'd rather just call mistakes mistakes, at least for the sake of a possibility of learning something. You are correct in that the question lies somewhat outside of my interest (and also know-how!) because I tend to rather win the game than worry about whether I should build a lumbermill, workshop or a farm post-1000AD. What I mean by this is that perhaps the high-level players who aim for a space victory can give you a clear answer. Paging @Anysense @Fish Man .

 

[Anysense]

As soon as you have Math you should chop and the faster the better. There is always something good to chop into. Early on it is granaries, workers and settlers. Later there are wonders, whether you complete or get failgold does not matter - it is a good use for forests either way. Then there are military units, speeding up military build up is always worth it.

Lumbermill is just something that you can build when you keep forests very late for some reason. That could be Spaceship parts, the Kremlin or corporation executives. Can't think of any other reason to have forests that late, certainly not just for the sake of building lumbermills. Forests are not a very big thing at this point in the game, as every chop saves only 1 turn of production or even less. They just can help you finish something critical a bit faster. On the other hand, early chops are big. If you don't utilize them it is a big loss.

 

[lymond]

Honestly, imo, if you want to build some lumbermills in the game, have at it. Lumbermills really only become somewhat viable after Railroad (again, very late). Regardless, workshops are stronger especially in State Prop. But if your tendency is to play the looong game, and go for Space using corporations like Mining and Sushi, then a few lumbermills are fine late game....they are not bad improvements at this stage with a railroad on top of them. Basically they are mines and in some cases 2F mines.

However, the key point other players are trying to make here is that you don't save forests early for the purpose of building lumbermills very late. The opportunity cost by not chopping forests early in your empire is just too great. If you are going to build some lumbermills, then maybe in some later captured or settled cities with some forests. AIs do tend to leave quite a bit of forest lying about. National Park city, if I build one, is usually in a captured city at some point.

Regardless, it is so critical in the early stages of the game to take advantage of chop hammers to establish your empire, get a key wonder, and maybe take out a neighbor or two. Civ IV is a game about snowballing, so setting yourself up early for better things later.

 

[ArchGhost]

I cannot see the point of workshops without state property and the caste system, after all. Towns are better than lumbermills, but towns are not for every tile of every city, especially production-oriented cities.

Workshops only need two improvements from the list of: Guilds, Chemistry, Caste and State Property to start to be worth it. At that point they yield as much as mines, and mines are good tiles if you have the food to work them, even better in a full blown hammer economy where you are building wealth/research through raw hammers.

Gaining all the improvements to workshops, they are only outdone by fully mature towns in US + Free Speech, and only from a total yield perspective. Workshops are still the better improvement in a hammer economy as gold via commerce is not directly equatable to hammers even with US.

Yet one gathers that the experts still dislike lumbermills. Why, please?

All other improvements that can be put on the tile are better unless the tile is flatland tundra forest, which can't be workshopped/farmed/cottaged if not directly adjacent to fresh water. The scenario where a lumbermill would yield more than a farm, cottage or workshop (even Water/windmills, when you get all their upgrades) is so rare and specific for tundra requiring a lot of targeted avoidance of tech in the tree.... and non-existent for plains/grasslands, which are just better with a different improvement after chopping the forest away.

The short answer is the same reason you EDIT:typically don't work unimproved forest tiles in the first place. You can do better whether by changing the tile improvement or using the pop a different way like specialists or whipping it away.

 

[lymond]

Good point on flat tundra forest (more specifically non-river or lake adjacent) as being THE one tile where arguably a lumbermill has value, other than chopping that forest. However, if we are talking about an early game city that happens to have these tiles, one has to ask oneself if the better benefit is to get the hammers from that forest now, given that that tile is now render basically useless. The answer is most likely yes.

 

[Major Tom]

Five cities, four workers. Eight cities, five workers. Something like that.

Just want to underline what @sampsa said about too few workers and I can imagine that is the reason why you have forests around. 1,5 workers per city may be a good benchmark early. Don’t priority roads, only on half move if don’t cost anything.

 

[civac]

Lumber mills are superior to work shops if you research Replacable Parts before Chemistry. The issue is that you won't and shouldn't have any left-over forests around at that time.

 

[coanda]

If you don't have Chemistry, you don't have Railroad. Which means a lumbermill is just +1H; it's per-turn output is at best competitive with a contemporary workshop. Except that by the time you get Replaceable Parts, both Chemistry and Communism are probably looming on the near horizon - those are probably two of your next five techs, and before long the choice is between a 2F3H lumbermill or a strictly-superior 2F4H workshop. Which means the lumbermill is strictly worse. It's not as good short-term because you don't get 30 chop hammers, and it's not as good long-term because it ends up producing fewer hammers per turn; why waste worker-turns on it?

If you're not planning on State Property that game the balance shifts. Then you're probably getting Railroad earlier so you can found Mining Inc, which makes the lumbermill hit full potential faster. And getting 1 less food from workshops means they're at least no longer clearly superior improvements.

 

[civac]

This is mostly right, I suppose but 1f2h/0f3h (ws pre Chemistry) is not competitive with 2f/2h/1f3h. The lumber mill has double the effect if you consider the upkeep of the working citizen.

 

[Snowbird]

If State Property workshops are clearly better. The best part is that your workers can prebuild them, and the instant SP hits massive bonus can be converted. So good use of workers would be prebuilding later improvements.

If going for Corps, I'd rather chop out another executive. One city getting corp bonuses a few turns faster is better than anything lumbermill can ever produce.

I think the issue is that simple, yes.

 

[6K Man]

They're not awful for Tundra forests (you can't do anything with bare Tundra with no fresh water) if you need production. Although if in a hurry, you'd chop them.

Otherwise, yeah, State Property Workshop on Grass is 2F3H (4H if you can avoid Emancipation) and Railroaded Lumbermill on Grass Forest is also 2F3H. The utility you get from the hammers you get for chopping down the forest usually outweighs the utility of half a

 

[SittinDown]

It's hard to get excited about non-river Tundra forests.

You could ask Atlas from BOTM 200.