The Martyr from the Netherlands

[Ziggy Stardust]

@Fugazi, you know what the problem is?

The people who immigrate here usually don't have a lot of money. So they automatically end up in the cheaper neighbourhoods if no one intervenes. But when immigrants are put in better neighbourhoods, you hear the Wilders crowd howling blood because them immigrants get the best houses. It's a can't win situation.

edit: Well, that's not true either. In the 80's the Turks were the big problem, and now they are better integrated than most Dutch born citizens

 

[fugazi]

I got a model family from Morocco living next to me and I'm more than sure that at least their oldest daughter will make it to a HBO or university. To be honest, my neighbourhood is far from being bad. It's quiet, rarely anything happens and with the ton of events that a group of inhabitants organise people know each other pretty well for a change. That doesn't mean however I'd wish to raise a kid here. Apparently it's perfectly normal for a 7 year old to say kankerhoer to the girl he's playing with. Go figure what comes out of their mouths when they're actually in a fight.

The problem isn't that they had no money, it's that they lack everything you need to succeed here and start at zero. A lot of them give up at the get go and tada. You're really thinking too much from the point of view that its a problem we created and that we need to fix. With more money.

*wont start about the importance of language again*

but at least we got the discussion sidetracked from Wilders. That must be a first on an internet forum

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If only it were that easy in politics

About the kid being an ass, parents. It always boils down to the parents. And I cannot imagine, maybe it's me, that someone who leaves everything behind to start anew in this country at least has the will to do so. And I do not think of it in those binary terms. A problem we or they created. I think it's far too short sighted not to engage both 'them' and 'us' if you want to solve anything.

And I never said anything about possible solutions, so I'm not quite sure how you drew the conclusion that "I'm really thinking too much from the point of view that its a problem we created and that we need to fix. With more money."

 

[bhsup]

Freedom of speech is pretty pointless if it only covers the things you agree with. You guys really have to stop making Karalysia and I agree, it's frakkin' disturbing. You'll notice that the phrase "hate speech" has the word speech in it just like "freedom of speech" does. So...guess what that means...

"freedom of hate speech"

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Would you be very surprised to hear that this trial doesn't have a lot of support here either, and it's mostly one Lawyer (Spong) who pushed this to come this far?

Even the most ardent Wilders haters roll their eyes and comment that just gives him another platform.

edit: Furthermore from the article: "He would be immune if his sharp comments hadn't [me] come from the speakers chair in parliament."

 

[classical_hero]

I just love how any time anyone dares to speak out against Islam, they are automatically xenophobic. It is quite funny how people always assume that since you are against a particular religion. Is his criticism of Islam right? I would say so. I do believe that it is an issue of freedom of speech, since if you do not have the right to criticise any religion, then you are basically giving religion free reign and giving them special rights, which they should not have.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I just love how any time anyone dares to speak out against Islam, they are automatically xenophobic. It is quite funny how people always assume that since you are against a particular religion. Is his criticism of Islam right? I would say so.

What specific criticism do you agree with?

 

[fugazi]

What specific criticism do you agree with?

That the Islam has no love for Jews. I myself am to meet the first muslim too that holds any love for Jews and I'm not talking about online muslims whos face I dont even know. The problem with this kind of talk in public is that you alienate a big group of people.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Is Classical Hero your double login?

 

[fugazi]

I am revealed

.. no, but I felt I could reply all the same.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2463690.ece/First_day_in_Wilders_trial

To illustrate how important Freedom of Speech or Inciting hatred/Violence is in this mock trial, I'll quote a segment from the NRC:

A prosecutor perhaps not so reluctant

Whatever the case, Velleman is the foremost specialist in matters pertaining to freedom of speech and discrimination. He made the decision not to prosecute Gretta Duisenberg in 2003. Duisenberg, a pro-Palestinian activist had said she intended to collect six million signatures in support of the Palestinian cause – a number some considered a thinly veiled reference to the Holocaust. Bram Moszkowicz, now Wilders’ lawyer, filed a formal complaint against Duisenberg at the time, accusing her of inciting discrimination and violence against Jews. Velleman said that while Duisenberg’s remarks might have been “hurtful” to Jews, they were well within legal limits.

Velleman and Moszkowicz, totally reversed in 2003.



Of course Duisenberg wasn't in parliament, but it just shows that noble sentiments about Freedom of Speech or Inciting hatred and Discrimination are merely empty phrases to dramatize.

It's a sham. Always has been.

I am revealed

.. no, but I felt I could reply all the same.

I had a specific reason for asking that particular person. Sorry if I sounded too pissy

Anyway, with regard to your answer, the Muslims I know don't seem to have a problem with my Jewish girlfriend. (Although their family really doesn't practise it anymore, and are effectively atheistic)

 

[Ecofarm]

Huh. Thought you were a pro-immigration and freedom-loving sort of guy.

I am pro (legal)-immigration. I am pro-multiculturalism. I am pro-melting pot.

That does not, however, preclude me from criticizing cultures and seeing problems with a certain group's integration.


Somewhere along the way, some people starting thinking that multi-culturalism = relative morality. That's incorrect.

Well, whatever. We already know that we shouldn't look to Ecofarm's ideas if we want a more peaceful world. Why should this issue be any different, right?

Well, whatever? What are you, my kid?

No whatever. I support the democratic peace theory. I believe that without world democracy... "the dream of lasting peace, world citizenship, and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion to be pursued, but never attained" -Marley.

I support the true path to world peace: democracy.

PS: I'm not the one couching it in European vs. non-European terms.

I think that's a euphenism, like western and eastern; used because people do not want to be branded as a supporter of the OP article guy just because they think they can criticize whatever group they want.

At least you seem to treat all religions equally, but can you explain to me how a Turkish muslim from, say, Istanbul, is worse than a Christian from the great plains? I think it's not impossible the Turk is actually less conservative.

I find muslims to be more oppressive of women, and more backwards socially, compared to the average christian. Christianity has been massively watered-down in the western world, and there are few fanatics, orthodox or thumpers in mainstream society. Why? Because we (the US) marginalize that attitude - no matter what religion it comes from.

Regardless, I despise me some fundie of any variety.

They generally can't handle them. They are balancing between ignoring him (which plays into Wilders' hand) or engaging him (which also plays into Wilders' hand, since he's the Master of one-liners).

Here at CFCOT, we handle JR (our one-line master) just fine. Of course, JR is not a bigot; he's just a master of one-liners, but still.

What's that country's problem? It's full of stupid people who cannot use reason against a bigot? You know why that country is incapable of opposing bigotry? Because they are protected from it by big daddy (the government). Perhaps if those countries did not have nanny hold everyone's hand and protect them from nasty people, the citizens could defend themselves against bigotry. Way to render a population to ignorance and helplessness.



A question directed at noone in particular:

How can Europe ban Scientology and at the same time protect Islam? Does that make any sense?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

How can Europe ban ....?

What's that country's problem? It's full of stupid people who cannot use reason against a bigot? You know why that country is incapable of opposing bigotry? Because they are protected from it by big daddy (the government). Perhaps if those countries did not have nanny hold everyone's hand and protect them from nasty people, the citizens could defend themselves against bigotry. Way to render a population to ignorance and helplessness.

Nag, nag, nag.

what is the position of all the other major political parties on the 'Party for Freedom'?

 

[Yeekim]

How can Europe ban Scientology and at the same time protect Islam? Does that make any sense?

I'll ignore the obvious mistake of treating France and Netherlands as single entity called "Europe". It's like asking how can state X allow gay marriage while state Y has banned it.

Short answer is that scientologists are few in number and do not start burning cars and beheading their ideological opponents when crossed.

Going into it deeper, I suspect there is a reason they don't. Namely that scientology is nothing but a fraud invented specifically to make money out of idiots. So, unlike (Fathers? Prophets? Priests?) of scientology, Imams actually belive what they preach.

 

[willemvanoranje]

They generally can't handle them. They are balancing between ignoring him (which plays into Wilders' hand) or engaging him (which also plays into Wilders' hand, since he's the Master of one-liners).

The thing is that he never reacts to any criticism. He just ignores criticism.

The media mostly is opposed to Wilders, but that's easily explained by pointing out the left wing bias of the media. Any of this sound familiar?

It also should be noted that Wilders hardly ever does interviews.

Well... pointing out makes it look like it's true. If you take Jeroen Pauw for example, his ideas are not left wing at all. He does not believe in the multi-cultural society and certainly has a problem with people not integrating. You'd expect Wilders to want to become his buddy. But Pauw is also simply critical. Doesn't accept , not even from those that may have similar views on some topics. And that's what Wilders can't deal with. He can't deal with people that can win an arguments. That's why he ignores them.

I live in a neighbourhood where most people do not have a Dutch background and where it's only thanks to a small group of Dutch women that things went way better. They started organising neighbourhood events and continue to do so, greatly increasing social interaction between people. Funnily enough it's still the Moroccan kids that refuse to partake, walking away if they can't partake in an event in and with their own groups. I've literally heard a 7 year old say 'I dont want to play with non-Moroccans' before he walked away. Sadly enough thats a topic thats somewhat more personal to me as Ive got Moroccan family, but trust me that those social problems are big in Rotterdam and Utrecht.

The story of the 7-year old is pretty sad, but it's a 7-year old. I'm sure we both said at least once that we don't want to play with girls when we were that age. Anyway, it's great to see that there are initiatives then. Don't blame those Moroccans for not organising such things, that will not help anyone. The important things is that there are events and that people participate, except for the group of youngsters you describe. The true value of these events will show in 10 years, when those that are small kids now have learned to interact with everyone. And who knows even those youngsters are turned around once they are out of their rebellious phase.

In short - I'd rather live in a more white area. I'm not saying that all of them are better, but chances are big that it will be. Not spreading minorities around and leaving them to live in their own neighbourhoods causes nothing but problems and people who think its racist to believe that living in such a neighbourhood is crappy either got lucky with their experiences or are rich enough to afford the blanket of naivity.

One problem. Can't force them. Can't force anyone.

Even the most ardent Wilders haters roll their eyes and comment that just gives him another platform.

Hear hear!

That the Islam has no love for Jews. I myself am to meet the first muslim too that holds any love for Jews and I'm not talking about online muslims whose face I dont even know. The problem with this kind of talk in public is that you alienate a big group of people.

Thank God Christians have been so in love with Jews throughout history...

I find muslims to be more oppressive of women, and more backwards socially, compared to the average christian. Christianity has been massively watered-down in the western world, and there are few fanatics, orthodox or thumpers in mainstream society. Why? Because we (the US) marginalize that attitude - no matter what religion it comes from.


How can Europe ban Scientology and at the same time protect Islam? Does that make any sense?

1 - And might this not too happen to muslims. In fact, isn't it already happening? My Istanbul example was based exactly on this. The only thing is that it takes time. Like secularisation did in Europe and the US.

2 - Is it? I just know not all countries acknowledge it as religion. But forbidden?

 

[fugazi]

The story of the 7-year old is pretty sad, but it's a 7-year old. I'm sure we both said at least once that we don't want to play with girls when we were that age. Anyway, it's great to see that there are initiatives then. Don't blame those Moroccans for not organising such things, that will not help anyone. The important things is that there are events and that people participate, except for the group of youngsters you describe. The true value of these events will show in 10 years, when those that are small kids now have learned to interact with everyone. And who knows even those youngsters are turned around once they are out of their rebellious phase.

It wasn't a freak accident, it's the way it always goes. There are very serious problems with that group of people and unless taken serious and treated ASAP, it will only get worse. Wilders is the only one who takes it serious, stands up for the common man but we all know why he ain't perfect.

That's where the problem lies - the only one answering it ain't the right person to deal with it, while the others focus on him instead of tackling on the problem properly themselves.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The only one answering it ain't the right person to deal with it, while the others focus on him instead of tackling on the problem properly themselves.

This we can agree on.

 

[willemvanoranje]

It wasn't a freak accident, it's the way it always goes. There are very serious problems with that group of people and unless taken serious and treated ASAP, it will only get worse.

Allright, I'll take your word for it that at least in this case it is something structural. But how to treat it? I think you agree that ranting against islam and immigrants isn't the most productive?

Wilders is the only one who takes it serious, stands up for the common man but we all know why he ain't perfect. That's where the problem lies - the only one answering it ain't the right person to deal with it, while the others focus on him instead of tackling on the problem properly themselves.

I'm feeling a real love-hate relationship with Wilders here. I agree to your point, and would even want to make it stronger. Wilders does not take it seriously. He does point out the problems. But he does not address, or addresses incorrectly, the underlying structures and causes. Furthermore, his solutions are no solutions. If I understand you well enough on this topic, I think you agree. Finally, I resent the image Wilders calls upon himself as the only one defending the interests of the common man. To the extend that there is something as the common man, he can stand up for his own rights very well and can find himself in other parties just as well.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I certainly hope Wilders isn't foud guilty of anything, because I think he does far more damage to all the xeonophobes / Islamophobes by having a public forum to spew his drivel:


Link to video.

 

[aelf]

I don't think I'm very xenophobic, we had lots of immigration in the 60's and 70's and those have been an asset to Sweden as a whole, that include some Turkish and Muslims from former Yugoslavia btw. I just don't see why we have this immigration today when it causes so much trouble. There is no abundance of jobs, tens of thousands of young Swedes travel to Norway to work ffs . Is immigration and multiculturalism a goal in itself, and if so when did that happend? I just don't get it. Thats why I'm posting, I guess.

Did I not say that I'm not trying to address immigration? I recall saying that I'm very open about immigration but that I don't have anything worthwhile to say about it. Rather, I'm trying to talk about integration.

You want to halt immigration? Fine. Personally, I'm not exactly eager to see the face of another Swedish immigration officer after the last and only time (the attitude towards foreigners seemed all too clear to me). But what is your reason? Is it because you want to stop the entry of people belonging to undesirable cultural groups? Such a motivation would not serve you well in solving the problems of integration. Issues about race and culture bleed even into economic discussions such as those regarding employment. I think it's certainly hard to separate concern about your own people from xenophobia. You have to be very honest about whether there really is a desire to integrate immigrants or whether you see it more as assimilating them into your superior culture or something. The first step is to look at your attitude and change it if necessary. Again, it's a two-way thing.

But from what you've been saying so far, I don't detect any willingness to change courses. You have expressed no desire to actually act on the problems and are instead quick to dismiss suggestions such as national education under the apparent guise of maintaining freedom and etc. And I don't think you're alone in this. All too often I hear Westerners saying that they love their freedoms and thus they will continue to do and say what they want. Well, in that case then your problems won't go away, will they? The only choice will be for you to revert to past follies.

This is probably the first time I have ever seen you PRAISE Singapore for something.

No, I've been saying that healthcare in Singapore has some positive aspects.

We have 3 different cultures living side by side with no major racial issues in 30 years. We respect each other as being different but united in the sense of nationhood. Through a process of mixing the people and stressing on the importance of "being in someone else's shoes" we are a diversed society that works together. Though, I fear that may change. Despite being descended from immigrants, we are strangely rude to foreigners. Unless they are white.

I trust you know that racism is alive and well in Singapore. However, indeed, the people have been able to live with each other partly because of such national education. Now if only we can complete the picture by eliminating racism entirely through better (not more) education.

ALL education is technically brainwashing then. The Government includes a chapter of Racial harmony in our textbooks and tells us to play nice in school. Don't exaggerate.

I'm afraid it might be useless to tell that to people who are so enamoured with their own worldview.