The Martyr from the Netherlands

[willemvanoranje]

It is a pity that Netherland's democracy is weak and superficial.

Could you please elaborate, and if you can, substantiate? A trial forced by citizens against the will of the state could suggests something else to me.

That is the strength of our democracy that we may burn our own flag freely.

That might actually be the one thing in your examples that is most likely to get you into trouble.

OK, Sweden took 100k last year. Thats with a pop of roughly 10 million. Two of the largest groups were Somalis and Iraqis, who have an employment-rate of less than 50% and are grossly overrepresentated in crime-statictics. War refugees are, as they have always been, a small part of the total immigration. Also I have in no way suggested making it illegal to marry foreigners and frankly its dishonest of you to try to suggest that I am. And really, how many cases a year are because of marriage? Less than a hundred I'd wager, come on.

If your statement is true, immigration in Sweden has risen by 35% since 2007. Seems a bit too high, although I must admit even 80.000 immigrants is quite high. I do believe your statements of the number of Somalis and Iraqis, but you do forget one big thing though:

"While returning Swedish citizens still comprise the largest group of immigrants so far in 2007 (at 12,821)..."

The article also confirmed that Iraqis are the largest non-Western group, at about 9,000. Would be more fair to show the division between Western- and non-Western immigrants though, because now it looks like you say that all those 100.000 were non-Western that threaten Swedish society.

So brainwash people until the problem goes away. Not sure that will work .

But doesn't the problem go away if we brainwash the immigrants into Swedishness or Swedenity?

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

If your statement is true, immigration in Sweden has risen by 35% since 2007. Seems a bit too high, although I must admit even 80.000 immigrants is quite high. I do believe your statements of the number of Somalis and Iraqis, but you do forget one big thing though:

"While returning Swedish citizens still comprise the largest group of immigrants so far in 2007 (at 12,821)..."

The article also confirmed that Iraqis are the largest non-Western group, at about 9,000. Would be more fair to show the division between Western- and non-Western immigrants though, because now it looks like you say that all those 100.000 were non-Western that threaten Swedish society.

Here are the 2008 numbers, those are over 100k as well, maybe you can google-translate or something.

http://www.scb.se/Pages/PressRelease____262430.aspx

Its true that many of them are from Europe.

edit: can't find any exact number for how many are non-European. If this thread is still alive tomorrow I might try some more.

But doesn't the problem go away if we brainwash the immigrants into Swedishness or Swedenity?

Nice. But no, they have to want to become Swedish themselves for it to work, or at least want to adapt enough to function well in Swedish society. This is where most of the problem lies, imo.

 

[aelf]

So brainwash people until the problem goes away. Not sure that will work .

Well, if you want to look at it that way (as I had already anticipated), I guess you could call most education brainwashing.

And I wouldn't be surprised if this problem continues in Europe. Why, Europeans seem to resist all viable measures to build a cohesive society with immigrants. You want to talk, but what you want to talk about, I'm not sure. I guess it's just an excuse for letting a little of your xenophobic side come out.

 

[fugazi]

OK, Sweden took 100k last year. Thats with a pop of roughly 10 million. Two of the largest groups were Somalis and Iraqis, who have an employment-rate of less than 50% and are grossly overrepresentated in crime-statictics. War refugees are, as they have always been, a small part of the total immigration. Also I have in no way suggested making it illegal to marry foreigners and frankly its dishonest of you to try to suggest that I am. And really, how many cases a year are because of marriage? Less than a hundred I'd wager, come on.



Its alright not to feel guilty about living in a successful society, really . And at least here those workers we took in 40 years ago are fine! I know I am, and so are my parents and grandparents! I don't burn cars even if someone slanders Mannerheim or make jokes about Norway.



So brainwash people until the problem goes away. Not sure that will work .

Everything is cool until you have to live with lots of them in a neighbourhood. The problem in that is that those in charge don't, and feel its their moral obligation to tell anyone who states what I just did - that you dont want to live with a lot of them in a neighbourhood as it simply means it will be a horsehockey one in nowadays Holland - a racist. I've got first hand experience with that and first hand stories about it from people who work in the real estate and neighbourhood development industry.

Sadly, Wilders doesnt open their eyes - it only makes them take on a more aggressive version of their old beliefs. The result is a war amongst a line that leads to no rational and helpful debate and those who need help and that which needs changing stays out of sight.

Fun fun.

 

[Ecofarm]

I guess it's just an excuse for letting a little of your xenophobic side come out.

Xenophobic? I don't see objections to westerners immigrating. Way to lose context and demonize.

I see problems with Muslims, not problems with all of the outside world. Stop pretending that just because someone does not like Muslims that they do not like anyone else. "If you dislike Muslims, you must dislike EVERYONE" = fail.

I see plenty of perfectly good reasons to dislike Muslims (I don't like Christians, Jews, Hindus or any other religious people either, fwiw). That does not mean I am a xenophobe; it means I think religion is stupid and, further, I think Muslims are the worst of them (mainstream).

 

[aelf]

Xenophobic? I don't see objections to westerners immigrating. Way to lose context and demonize.

I see problems with Muslims, not problems with all of the outside world. Stop pretending that just because someone does not like Muslims that they do not like anyone else. "If you dislike Muslims, you must dislike EVERYONE" = fail.

I see plenty of perfectly good reasons to dislike Muslims (I don't like Christians, Jews, Hindus or any other religious people either, fwiw). That does not mean I am a xenophobe; it means I think religion is stupid and, further, I think Muslims are the worst of them (mainstream).

Huh. Thought you were a pro-immigration and freedom-loving sort of guy.

Well, whatever. We already know that we shouldn't look to Ecofarm's ideas if we want a more peaceful world. Why should this issue be any different, right?


PS: I'm not the one couching it in European vs. non-European terms.

 

[Ayatollah So]

And this is why you don't put people on trial for saying crazy things. You let them keep saying crazy things and ignore them like the crazy people they are.

You got the first 2 parts right. But you don't ignore them, you spread nasty rumors about them. Turnabout is fair play.

 

[Shadylookin]

Freedom of speech is not the same as freedom of insult.

It pretty much is. Freedom of speech is the right to say unpopular things. No regime in the world would get on your case for saying nice things about their policies.

 

[Agent327]

Not really. I seem to recall that words as '[denigrating word for black]', '' and what have you are not being frequently used in, say, US politics. One can argue against or propose certain measures, but insulting a minority isn't part of freedom of speech under Dutch law. It is another matter of such a law - which resulted in the 19th century Catholic emancipation and originates from the various religious denominations present in the Netherlands - is still useful today, but Wilders isn't arguing against this law and his equations seem to lack historical insight, notwithstanding the fact that he emerged from the dominant Liberal party here. (Liberal in this context rather meaning conservative than progressive.)

Yes it is. One of our politicians suggested we nuke Mecca, another proposed a bill to deport all Iranians, Cubans, Sudanese, and Syrians from the US.

Neither of them are being arrested or charged. That is the strength of our democracy that we may burn our own flag freely.

It is a pity that Netherland's democracy is weak and superficial.

It is a pity your powers of observation are weak and superficial. The Netherlands do not have politicians suggesting to 'nuke Mecca', 'deport all Iranians, Cubans, Sudanese, and Syrians' or similar examples of ridiculousness, nor do we have people wanting to burn the Dutch flag. Our democracy is quite firmly rooted, thank you.

 

[willemvanoranje]

Everything is cool until you have to live with lots of them in a neighbourhood.

And in which of such neighbourhoods may you be living?

The problem in that is that those in charge don't, and feel its their moral obligation to tell anyone who states what I just did - that you dont want to live with a lot of them in a neighbourhood as it simply means it will be a horsehockey one in nowadays Holland - a racist. I've got first hand experience with that and first hand stories about it from people who work in the real estate and neighbourhood development industry.

So what are you complaining about? Badly planned and cared for neighbourhoods, or immigrants? No one tells you you are a racist when you don't want to live in those neighbourhoods. It makes sense, since some of them are in pretty bad shape. Thank God you can move away. But if you say you don't want to live with "those filthy immigrants" (to exagerate a bit), that is discrimination. It means you wouldn't want to live in the same place with them even if the neighbourhood were to be in good shape.

And please elaborate on your first hand experience in this case as well. I have it too, and as you can see I turned out quite differently.

Sadly, Wilders doesnt open their eyes - it only makes them take on a more aggressive version of their old beliefs. The result is a war amongst a line that leads to no rational and helpful debate and those who need help and that which needs changing stays out of sight.

Indeed. Maybe it was necessary for a person like Fortuyn to put it on the agenda, but the Netherlands would have been far better of if a less polarising politician would have taken over his legacy.. someone like old Bolkenstein.. I'm not a fan, but if this would have been a VVD thing, we would probably have a more fruitful debate in our country.

Xenophobic? I don't see objections to westerners immigrating. Way to lose context and demonize.

Well, they aren't really that unknown now, are they?

I see problems with Muslims, not problems with all of the outside world. Stop pretending that just because someone does not like Muslims that they do not like anyone else. "If you dislike Muslims, you must dislike EVERYONE" = fail.

No one ever said that. No one even ever disputed Western immigration, because everyone knows the chance of anyone being against that are rather slim and because that topic is just so massively overshadowed by immigration from non-Western countries, with an emphasis on muslims of course.

I see plenty of perfectly good reasons to dislike Muslims (I don't like Christians, Jews, Hindus or any other religious people either, fwiw). That does not mean I am a xenophobe; it means I think religion is stupid and, further, I think Muslims are the worst of them (mainstream).

At least you seem to treat all religions equally, but can you explain to me how a Turkish muslim from, say, Istanbul, is worse than a Christian from the great plains? I think it's not impossible the Turk is actually less conservative.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

"Wilders stand accused"

Oh My Gosh! A trial! How fascist!

And can we please stop using Freedom of Speech as a shield for this craphead who wants to ban the Koran? He wants to have his cake an eat it.

 

[Camikaze]

This is a tricky situation. On the one hand, Wilders is obviously a despicable human being, who deserves nothing less than a lengthy stint in prison, but on the other hand, trying people for political opinions sets a bad precedent.

I would say bad move on the part of whoever is trying him. It's put him into a win-win situation. Be incarcerated and he looks like a martyr, be exonerated, and it looks like he valiantly fought off the forces against free speech. On the other hand, if there are laws in place that Wilders has broken, they have no choice but to either try him, leading to the current win-win situation, or retract the laws, basically endorsing what Wilders is saying.

Gah! Why must there be no apparent way to overcome repugnant extremist xenophobic tripe?

Just curious, what is the position of all the other major political parties on the 'Party for Freedom'? Have they been universally denounced, or do some parties play politics and court their support?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

They generally can't handle them. They are balancing between ignoring him (which plays into Wilders' hand) or engaging him (which also plays into Wilders' hand, since he's the Master of one-liners).

Example: Wilders suggested a tax on muslim women who wear headscarfs (not a full burqa, just the handkerchief haircovering thingy) which is ludicrous in itself. To be sure he would get a nice response he called it "Kopvoddentax". Hard to translate it, but: "kop" head of an animal, "vod" is a rag and "tax" is a tax. This makes it clear he's not there to discuss policy, he wants theatre.

Oh well, he's got a lot of ****** followers (think the kind of people in the US who believe Glenn Beck is the best thing since sliced bread). So it's not unthinkable we're talking about the next Prime Minister of the Netherlands. Pro: This guy believes the way to solve our traffic jams is to get as many Muslims as possible out of the country, the way to solve the aging population is to get as many Muslims as possible out of the country and the solution to Global Warming is to get as many Muslims as possible out of the country. So changed are he'll crash and burn. Con: This guy believes the way to solve our traffic jams is to get as many Muslims as possible out of the country, the way to solve the aging population is to get as many Muslims as possible out of the country and the solution to Global Warming is to get as many Muslims as possible out of the country. So we'll be standing still for 4 years.

But at least we got as many Muslims as possible out of the country.

 

[Camikaze]

I suppose another important question is where the media's sympathies lie. I would assume that if the media was also opposed to Wilders, it wouldn't be too hard to make him look like a complete buffoon, even to those people that support him.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The media mostly is opposed to Wilders, but that's easily explained by pointing out the left wing bias of the media. Any of this sound familiar?

It also should be noted that Wilders hardly ever does interviews.

edit: Can we get rid of these xmas smilies already? It's nearly spring ffs!

 

[Yeekim]

So what are you complaining about? Badly planned and cared for neighbourhoods, or immigrants? No one tells you you are a racist when you don't want to live in those neighbourhoods. It makes sense, since some of them are in pretty bad shape. Thank God you can move away. But if you say you don't want to live with "those filthy immigrants" (to exagerate a bit), that is discrimination. It means you wouldn't want to live in the same place with them even if the neighbourhood were to be in good shape.

Inhabitants of any given neighborhood are usually the most decisive factor in how good shape the place is in.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

And I wouldn't be surprised if this problem continues in Europe. Why, Europeans seem to resist all viable measures to build a cohesive society with immigrants. You want to talk, but what you want to talk about, I'm not sure. I guess it's just an excuse for letting a little of your xenophobic side come out.

I don't think I'm very xenophobic, we had lots of immigration in the 60's and 70's and those have been an asset to Sweden as a whole, that include some Turkish and Muslims from former Yugoslavia btw. I just don't see why we have this immigration today when it causes so much trouble. There is no abundance of jobs, tens of thousands of young Swedes travel to Norway to work ffs . Is immigration and multiculturalism a goal in itself, and if so when did that happend? I just don't get it. Thats why I'm posting, I guess.

 

[aronnax]

As for people who have immigrated, despite its rather poor showing when it comes to issues about immigration, I think it might be useful to take a page from Singapore's policies on ethnic integration. Immigrants and native people should live in the same places and go to the same schools. And that must be coupled with strong inculcation in the value of pluralism and in the notion of unity in diversity. It might seem like brainwashing to you, but I guess it's a good kind of brainwashing. Do it well and perhaps the notion that it's us vs. them would disappear, at which point the problem melts away.

This is probably the first time I have ever seen you PRAISE Singapore for something.
And I agree with you.

We have 3 different cultures living side by side with no major racial issues in 30 years. We respect each other as being different but united in the sense of nationhood. Through a process of mixing the people and stressing on the importance of "being in someone else's shoes" we are a diversed society that works together. Though, I fear that may change. Despite being descended from immigrants, we are strangely rude to foreigners. Unless they are white.

Also... Christianity is pretty fire-brand here.

So brainwash people until the problem goes away. Not sure that will work .

ALL education is technically brainwashing then. The Government includes a chapter of Racial harmony in our textbooks and tells us to play nice in school. Don't exaggerate.

 

[fugazi]

And in which of such neighbourhoods may you be living?

So what are you complaining about? Badly planned and cared for neighbourhoods, or immigrants? No one tells you you are a racist when you don't want to live in those neighbourhoods. It makes sense, since some of them are in pretty bad shape. Thank God you can move away. But if you say you don't want to live with "those filthy immigrants" (to exagerate a bit), that is discrimination. It means you wouldn't want to live in the same place with them even if the neighbourhood were to be in good shape.

And please elaborate on your first hand experience in this case as well. I have it too, and as you can see I turned out quite differently.

I got friends and family who work or worked at woningcorporaties and at detacheringsbureaus in the housing industry. You don't want to know how awkward the top is in that formerly bureaucrat-only world.

As for saying filthy, you're the one saying it. I live in a neighbourhood where most people do not have a Dutch background and where it's only thanks to a small group of Dutch women that things went way better. They started organising neighbourhood events and continue to do so, greatly increasing social interaction between people. Funnily enough it's still the Moroccan kids that refuse to partake, walking away if they can't partake in an event in and with their own groups. I've literally heard a 7 year old say 'I dont want to play with non-Moroccans' before he walked away. Sadly enough thats a topic thats somewhat more personal to me as Ive got Moroccan family, but trust me that those social problems are big in Rotterdam and Utrecht.

In short - I'd rather live in a more white area. I'm not saying that all of them are better, but chances are big that it will be. Not spreading minorities around and leaving them to live in their own neighbourhoods causes nothing but problems and people who think its racist to believe that living in such a neighbourhood is crappy either got lucky with their experiences or are rich enough to afford the blanket of naivity.

Heh, and it's no different in Sweden by the way. But that's another story.

 

[fugazi]

I don't think I'm very xenophobic, we had lots of immigration in the 60's and 70's and those have been an asset to Sweden as a whole, that include some Turkish and Muslims from former Yugoslavia btw. I just don't see why we have this immigration today when it causes so much trouble. There is no abundance of jobs, tens of thousands of young Swedes travel to Norway to work ffs . Is immigration and multiculturalism a goal in itself, and if so when did that happend? I just don't get it. Thats why I'm posting, I guess.

The idea that you're actively helping others is a worthy pursuit for many. When it seems to come at no cost for you, it's even better and when people who get to live with the downsides of it complain, you just call them ignorant racists. In Holland we brought in an entirely new bottomlayer for our society and it's logically that it's mostly the people living in lower circles of society that are complaining about it and feeling the nasty side-effects. It pretty much seems to be the same in Sweden, when I hear the stories about suburbs in Gothenburg where immigrants are more plenty than Swedes. Schools turn to , crime goes up, etc.

To actively oppose 'this' and have the desire to limit immigration from areas where people lack the necessary cultural background, education, wealth and whatever you have is not racist. It's showing common sense, not bowing down to the demands of the economy's desire of ever more cheap workers and not saddling up the lower circles of societies with problems they never asked for. Also it lets you focus on the current problems, instead of having to acknowledge them and then move on to the next as there's simply too many of them.

.. and to think I'm a D66 voter, ho ho ho, I should go to a party congress.