The mod of mods. An interesting suggestion

[damerell]

Yes, but it seems you're the only modder who does. I've asked a few others, though my knowledge of who to ask is little, with no response.

I think there are at least three ideas banging around here:

1) the grab-bag mod of everything - but C2C is already insanely huge.
2) the "best of the best"... but who agrees what's the best? Everyone thinks their own stuff is best and you're back at square one.
3) the simple rebalancing of broken stuff... but how far does that go?

 

[GKey]

I like the idea very much.

As been noted, it is really complicated to decide how MoM should look, should it be just bugs fixing mod or complete rework, what aspects and futures should it focus, what existing mods should it include etc.

I'd suggest create a poll, may be edit 1st message in this thread for this and kindly ask moderators to stick this thread on some easy to find place (top of General Discussion page may be?) and let it run for couple of months.

Looks like this poll will contain dozens of entries, so now we just need to decide what are these entries need to be.

Hopefully this poll will bring in hundreds of responses, so we will have some kind of consensus.

BTW it would be nice if this thread would include list of popular existing mods, personally I quickly get lost when I try to browse mods section of the forums

 

[calibur]

Since modders would be doing the work, they should have the final say. But a poll on the general direction isn't a bad idea. Moderatorators, you see this.
The most important thing is to get some modders involved.

 

[damerell]

The most important thing is to get some modders involved.

To put it bluntly, modders are already doing whatever scratches their itches. If you want something else done, you have to do it yourself - or come up with _and do a significant amount of work on_ something so brilliant they'll want to switch to it.

There are already quite a few mod-of-mods out there. Why a new one?

 

[calibur]

I'm no mOdder. My vision, as stated earlier, would be to cOmbine the best functions of the major mods, taking influence from most or each.

 

[AdamCrock]

I would like to goto into Final Frontier without fuss after space race

 

[damerell]

I'm no mOdder. My vision, as stated earlier, would be to cOmbine the best functions of the major mods, taking influence from most or each.

And what I'm saying is either you can do that yourself or come up with a vision so compelling that they will want to do it... realistically, after you start doing it yourself.

 

[el_hidalgo]

I've always wondered why Firaxis didn't do this themselves. They have all this work that people have done for free -- some of it extremely high quality -- and all they would have to do is package it and release it as another expansion.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I've always wondered why Firaxis didn't do this themselves. They have all this work that people have done for free -- some of it extremely high quality -- and all they would have to do is package it and release it as another expansion.

There are probably some legal issues involved -- what is owned by whom, payment for the modder's time for original artwork, SDK code, etc.

 

[Commander Bello]

I'm no mOdder. My vision, as stated earlier, would be to cOmbine the best functions of the major mods, taking influence from most or each.

If you want to do something for the community don't make the modders create just an additional mod, make Firaxis make an expansion with support for 64bit OS and multicore cpus. Maybe a little overhaul of the graphics engine, too... and then lean back and watch, what the modders really can do.

 

[calibur]

If you want to do something for the community don't make the modders create just an additional mod, make Firaxis make an expansion with support for 64bit OS and multicore cpus. Maybe a little overhaul of the graphics engine, too... and then lean back and watch, what the modders really can do.

If modders creating this is unlikely, fireaxis doing it is a pipe dream.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

This thread reminded me of that xkcd post here.

Besides, I´m pretty sure there already are several mods that would fit your description, Legends of Revolution for instance has the subtitle "Unofficial Expansion Project" and claims to be just what you wish for, a de facto third expansion for Civ 4. I also think it does a pretty good job at fulfilling that promise too, I for one never looked back after starting to play it.

 

[rightfuture]

Speaking on the official behalf of the C2C Team and myself,

Imagine the power of focus and teamwork guys.
We could have 1 great team, and 1 awesome evolving next generation experience.
I have to agree with Eduhum. Fall from Heaven became part of an official CIV expansion, and together we could have a part in improving the next CIV. We would have to be really successful to challenge 2k's total success and more likely we would making a compelling case for all of us to be on the team to make the next CIV 6 or CIV 7. I for one would guarantee that everyone here would have a voice in the next game.
Firaxis adopting our efforts may be a pipe dream but so was FALL FROM HEAVEN being part of an official CIV expansion. You never know what we could accomplish together if we found a way to get past our differences and try for a moment or 2.
I have lived to see and have helped shape very unlikely and unprobable things happen. Firaxis may clip our wings, but at least we attempted to 'Climb to Heaven' together. Our ideas could inspire the next CIV, and our efforts could be a part of gaming history.

I would like to invite Everyone from All mods to join with us to create
the ULTIMATE CIV (MOD OF MODS).

Just imagine the power of everyone working together to focus on creating the best solutions and overcoming all of our differences to everyone's benefit, by having the best game possible.
We could have a Dream Team of great modders leading everyone to debate and improve the ideas until we can all agree (for the sake of keeping things moving) on our direction.

Here is my, I hope compelling case to at least start with C2C and it's team/community.
C2C -Cavemen to Cosmos, is already built on BUG, REVDCM, ROM, AND/RAND, is was created as an allliance between modders with Strategy Only to keep moving that idea forward. They
are working in the Final Frontier Mod and adding an additional Galactic Era. They have rewritten the AI. added terrain, pioneering increasing the resource limit, added viewports, and worked with another mod to add multi-maps. They have completely re-worked the tech tree and are even looking to include alternate history eras, a dimensional era, and anything they can dream up!
They have drawn in participation from some of the great modders like Primem0ver(The Genetic Mod) and release a new version almost every month (with more new features each time than a official expansion). They are even planning to re-write, bypass, and mod the actual Civ IV game engine to be multi-core and have started serious talk about creating an even greater next-gen game from scratch and bridging the two projects.
Seriously.

I argue that C2C is already well on the way to becoming that Dream Team and Dream MOD already, and that it is probably a good idea to consider starting with C2C. I also think we should tie in the ROM and AND communities since C2C includes most of their best, and invite all players, modders, and mod creators to at least come together to at least talk about that bridge. With enough focus and willingness to overcome our differences, who knows how far we could go together. C2C has time and time again shown a willingness to completely rework even settled concepts from scratch to make them better. Strategy Only, the leader of C2C himself stresses that everyone has a voice and a place in making C2C the best game ever, and that any idea can be improved. (i will edit this post to quote him). C2C was created on the idea of separate modders coming together to create MORE of a good thing with the best parts of both AND and ROM and is already much more. C2C is already a great step towards the ultimate community mod and certainly qualifies as the next step in the BUG/REVDCM/ROM/AND progression. There is nothing that isn't open to better ideas or people's involvement.
Based on this argument I think C2C should at least be the starting foundation for all this greatness. We probably should at least consider it.

I think the person (I will have to edit this after I look him up) who was taking over AND wanted to merge the best parts of the K-mod with C2C to finish AND relatively recently.
I happen to agree that a good place to start is merging in the k-mod so I will start a thread (to be linked here) for just that purpose. Ultimately I think the creators and content of many of the great mods should be invited to participate. We could then easily have the ultimate Dream Team, not to mention the Ultimate MOD, and potentially the ULTIMATE SIMULATON GAME.

C2C, The K-MOD, the new AND, the old AND, ROM, Legends of Revolutions, and a bunch of other mods qualify as mods meant to create the Ultimate MOD. Why Can't we all come together to make a better one? None of the other projects have to be abandoned or ignored, heck they may all benefit from team effort and cross-pollination. I argue that we need 1 single united effort to team up on. We could make efforts to work together to bridge the best of parts of them. No matter what, our United Effort would end up different. I thought Extra, and then ROM, and then AND would be the ultimate community mod and bring people together. I think it is time we considered coming together for the purpose of finding greatness. I think a lot of people would support the group efforts to merge the major efforts together. With the mod creator and community support it is even possible.
I for one would love to see the best ideas come together, and the limits of modding pushed. I want to play that united evolution of a game that could blow away the next Civ 6. Some of these mods ain't far from pushing those limits already. C2C definitely has potential, and because they have a powerful team, it is just a good place to start. At least give it a chance and consider it. They are considering creating a next gen game right now and bridging the the 2 projects. I say we start building bridges and see what the best we can do together can be.

I'm going to at least set up a thread and link it here to bring the discussion to 1 single place.
You never know where this journey can take us.

@Eduhum, Vincentz, Lemon Merchant, the Creator of the K-MOD, everybody who posted here, the C2C Team, the contributors and participants to the BUG, REVDCM, ROM, AND, and pretty much any modder, past modder, and player please consider joining this new/existing effort together. Differences of opinions and obstacles are just challenges that we are more likely to overcome together. All we have to do is focus, and help make room for each other's ideas. Imagine the best coming together, we certainly can get farther than by ourselves. We are united in our love for CIV and our desire to see the best game ever!

To start:
Here is a link to a similar post and conversation someone just started in the C2C forum.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=484339
(I will post a link to new thread to bring us all together asap)

A journey is always more possible when you cross the next hill to see the hidden path beyond. All you have to do is take a step to get closer. History is littered with things that important people thought were not possible. Just imagine if we could all come together. The United States and the Apollo Space Program were just ideas at first. Teenagers have recently radically improved Cancer research, built a fusion reactor in their garage, and done some pretty amazing things. I have seen average people reach far beyond themselves. Do you really want to limit what is possible, and what you really want?
You never know how far you can go until you try.
Just imagine what could be possible if we all try. You might surprise yourself. For the LOVE of CIV!

 

[rightfuture]

I would like to goto into Final Frontier without fuss after space race

C2C is adding the Final Frontier, and a Galactic Era.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

...

tl; dr: So what you are saying is, you want the ultimate mod to be a misch-masch of everything and the kitchen sink's mother?
Now don't get me wrong, I do think this idea has potential, but I don't think this more=better mentality is the right way to go.

Also you might want to use the Final Frontier Plus modmod instead of the regular one that came with BtS, it removed many of its bugs and added some new content so it is actually balanced and playable.

 

[calibur]

StartegyOnly, when I invited him here, replied only by pointing out that C2C could be much less taxing because of the viewport feature. While not incorrect, that's not the spirit you're referring to. And he's the only one of the five very prominent modders I contacted who responded as of yet.
However, as you are a member of the C2C team, perhaps you can spread this thought among them. Perhaps we could even get all modders into it to create the One mod to rule them all.
You seem to have vision, persuasion, and experience. You could lead the way. Lemon is also a viable candidate for this, the regulars here, at least in the general discussion forum, know her.
If we can get large enough support, perhaps we could truly create the greatest game ever, as you suggest in the other forum.
I could work only as a missionary, and not an efficient one at that, but i'll do my best if this is a truly viable thing.

I do think this idea has potential, but I don't think this more=better mentality is the right way to go.

That's what Karadoc is for.

 

[rightfuture]

StartegyOnly, when I invited him here, replied only by pointing out that C2C could be much less taxing because of the viewport feature. While not incorrect, that's not the spirit you're referring to. And he's the only one of the five very prominent modders I contacted who responded as of yet.
However, as you are a member of the C2C team, perhaps you can spread this thought among them. Perhaps we could even get all modders into it to create the One mod to rule them all.
You seem to have vision, persuasion, and experience. You could lead the way. Lemon is also a viable candidate for this, the regulars here, at least in the general discussion forum, know her.
If we can get large enough support, perhaps we could truly create the greatest game ever, as you suggest in the other forum.
I could work only as a missionary, and not an efficient one at that, but i'll do my best if this is a truly viable thing.

That's what Karadoc is for.

If could we could start with C2C or a fair merge of major mods, then the creators of these mods would more likely join in. No-one wants to throw out their existing efforts or control of their pet project. I think a fair merge would set the best common ground and a good foundation. I would like to hear everyone's opinions on what they would want. I think that Strategy Only would be up for it if we don't throw away C2C, and the same would go for many projects. Merging would probably be the one way we could get support from each project's modders and community. I see no way past that. Unless we have complete buy-in I don't see any of the existing project's completely blending together. Done right it's possible. Shared code makes shared development easier. Obviously it would be hard not have conflict on what we decide on together. That will take some time and work. If we stay united in our common goal then we will find a way.

We could potentially inspire major modders and past luminaries like Afforress and Zapparra (sorry about any misspelling I will fix) to give their blessing, advice, or sit in. We could start with modders showing their support at first. I think the key is to focus on the goal which is to simply take the best, fit it together, and improve on it for the purpose of making the best game possible. I think we all stand on common ground here. So we have the united goal and vision.
Next would be to pitch the Dream Team and Team Leaders together for the major mods with the purpose of finding the best way to come together. I would focus on desire and natural strengths. Each person will probably gravitate to do what they prefer best. I have actual business world experience at coordinating chiefs and naturally study that philosophy; so I think I have solutions that these guys would be agreeable to. I could definitely play chairperson, organizer, and coordinator. I think that once we set up a meeting that roles and egos would sort themselves out. We just have to first decide on the team.
Then we can develop the vision outline for what the best of our team wants to do so that we can pitch it to each part of the community.
We could even approach other modding and gaming/game design forums.

tl; dr: So what you are saying is, you want the ultimate mod to be a misch-masch of everything and the kitchen sink's mother?
Now don't get me wrong, I do think this idea has potential, but I don't think this more=better mentality is the right way to go.

Also you might want to use the Final Frontier Plus modmod instead of the regular one that came with BtS, it removed many of its bugs and added some new content so it is actually balanced and playable.

Not a misc-mash more of a best of and a better direction to move in.
C2C is working at integrating the Final Frontier Mod and of course working and they are looking at Final Frontier Plus and others. It would be nice to encourage feature porting and teamwork both ways.

What I'm saying is to create a mod together based on the best of what already exists, and for us to team up to see what can happen. Start with a merge of the best couple of mods, and fix the rest, then explore ideas together. Experimental modules could be testable for stable releases. Sometimes a revised unstable version could be released for testing features that affect larger parts. The core could take a while, but a design document outline could be worked out for an ideal version or just to work on new features. Each features could have it's own discussion thread. It would definitely take mod teams from major mods to pull this off.

I'm not interested in all ideas being completely thrown together. Start with a good core, C2C has a lot of these ideas already together and could be the best agreeable foundation with AND, ROM, REVDCM, and BUG already in it and a good bit of major new features. I want the ULTIMATE CIV/SIM mod to bridge the better ideas, and carve off the bad ones, while still exploring new ones. I want the best modders to moderate so that it doesn't fall apart or descend into chaos or obstacles, and be open to the best of the community.

I think that maybe we should take K-MOD and/or Legend of Revolutions and work them together to create bridge core mod, and then take best ideas to the next level, working together to overcome obstacles and find better ways to do things.
Many of these mods started by combining 2 mods, and a pretty good way to progress is deciding the best way to proceed. There has to be a way to fit the best of what already exists with a start from scratch plan. Having threads where we merge the major components like C2C and K-MOD for example. And then having the community stabilize the version, could be the best way to not have to rework everything.
ROM worked in REVDCM at some point, and REV DCM was a merge of Revolutions and Dale's Combat mod, so it is possible to pull something off and work it out. Especially with communities and mod teams coming together to figure out how to do it better.
Fleshing out a good plan is a start. We could have an outline and fairly consider mods and modder hierarchy to keep things from descending into chaos.

For starters, If I had to set a few rules. I would:
1. Allow all ideas to be openly debated, separately from development threads, to be discussed based on their merit. So that progress can be made and ongoing discussions to improve features can proceed at all times while not slowing development. At some point decisions have to be made to keep things moving.

2. Have a process to settle disagreements so that everyone is heard. Compromises and decisions should be able to be revisited. No one's ideas are not -valuable. Disagreements should not destroy our attempts to make something better together.

3. We should have stability, focus, individual, and experimental phases for development.

4. Allow the most experienced of modders to take a leadership role , and evolve natural hierarchical relationships to keep things working smoothly together. While I do have a good bit of project management experience, some programming and modding experience, and a lot of years pouring over designing such a game. I do believe that we need both organizers like Strategy Only, Lemon, as well as other Mod Team leaders to fit together the best way possible. The goal is the most important thing to me, to see the best mod/game possible, so far as people want me to lead, I have no problem with that role, I just want to guarantee that every other leader is comfortable and working together fairly. I want everyone to have maximum room for their ideas and desires to thrive. Fitting everyone's vision together will not be easy, but it is possible. To have the best game and Dream Team possible we must see the value in fitting our individual vision together so that we can have the best collective one.

5. I think we need to have the combined mod-team make decisions to keep things moving, and the community to keep open debate for future changes to be considered for future versions. This way neither derails the other.

I do think we should refer to this as the ONE mod. Or the ULTCIVSIM mod to be more descriptive. I still think we should consider C2C as the best starting component or at least a major one. All the stability issues, and stripping would occur with major merges afterward anyway. Starting from scratch is probably not a good idea. We want as many teams, modders, and players as possible to feel part of this.
Think of this as the spiritual successor to all these mods. I am sure that features will be ported back to the communities and the individual expressions/mods will continue. We are bridging these mods to create ONE mod to rule them all so that we can create new features together, and we can have one community project to work on together.
The more these mods share features the more that components will improve the whole community. Every person mod has it's place, everybody takes their turn at being burnt out. It is a good argument that we share a community mod and a preferred individual project so we have 2 projects to work on. 1 will always be a focus. I should argue that a community mod allows us all to do more things and pioneer farther. So ONE mod to bridge them Most allows efforts to benefit both projects.

I am all about working together to better achieve our goal.
Let's figure out the best way to make this happen.
Consider this a work in progress and a goal to start on.
Let us get to know one another and bridge people as best we can.

Anyone who wants to improve our plan or join us is welcome to. Please speak up.
It all starts with an idea. I want to see this happen. I am always open to changing or improving any ideas we have. For tonite this is a good start.

 

[rightfuture]

I think there are at least three ideas banging around here:

1) the grab-bag mod of everything - but C2C is already insanely huge.
2) the "best of the best"... but who agrees what's the best? Everyone thinks their own stuff is best and you're back at square one.
3) the simple rebalancing of broken stuff... but how far does that go?

How about.
1. Unity to make ONE mod.
2. not grab bag. Best ideas worked out. Start with the ones we can work out best, and proceed. Who decides what is best? The team of modders has experience with good judgement, the community can check that. I am certain that this can be worked out.

I agree C2C is bigger than all the other mods combined already. Taking mods like K-mod and Legends of Revolutions and merging them all together will be even bigger. Much will probably probably get temporarily removed for stability sake and worked back in so it can be balanced. Some will probably be removed after much thought and review. I am thinking we should keep a lite version of the mod for older machines, but work on making the major mod the focus. The best is not necessarily the smallest either. Bigger or smaller is only nice when it adds something. I think the philosophy of these mods have to be fit together. Most of them add things, so figuring out what will make things better is key. I'm not one to cut out ideas that can be made better. I'm also not one to add unnecessary things. We want to work out what will keep the communities in the most agreement until we can work out the best combinations.

3. It will always be tough to find agreement. Sometimes issues will not be settled. We work on what we can agree on. We develop the next best until we can improve it. A lot of what we must decide on will be the best we can agree on right now. Who agrees will be worked out once we have a team. I'm going to do my best to make sure everyone is heard, and have no desire to interfere with the best possible decisions being made. Experience and good judgement will be tested by figuring out how to work together. Obviously those who lead teams have proven judgement. It won't be to hard to figure out who does what best, and to set up specializations and areas of expertise. Leadership and teamwork will be worked out once we have the team. I will do my best to insure that the team and the community can work together fairly. I have a lot of real-world experience and study in this area.

4. rebalancing and bug squashing is a constant exercise. Before a stable release there needs to be a united bug squashing and stability phase. Broken stuff needs to have a coordinated plan if it's major. Minor stuff can be worked out along the way. Lot's of these best practices are used in the programming industry. I see this as an at-will project like C2C with people focusing on what they want to as well as what they are best at. It will remain casual and flexible as at-will work should progress, but we will come together to follow a loose business structure so that the project remains sound.
Pacing between people and teams will have to be worked out.

5. All of this is a work-in-progress and these are just my ideas. I want us to work to figure out what are the ones we can agree on. I want differing opinions and disagreements to help us want to overcome obstacles. I am of the mindset that the diversity of our experience makes us stronger, and disagreeing can motivate us to come up with better solutions. All of this is negotiable. The whole purpose is to get the best people together and work this out. This is just an idea to keep it together and make it work. And we all want the best ideas, it is the collective of the best ideas, not the compromise of the one's we can just live with that we are aiming for.

Anyone feel free to comment, you all are who makes this possible. We are going to have to ask to figure this all out and get people to see the vision.
In it's simplest fixed form.
1. We have one common goal, to take the best ideas and the best people to create a Dream Project that is the best CIV/SIM game possible. And to create the best Dream Team with those who have proven or will prove themselves and to give everyone a voice. I want every major community to have a representation/participation if possible.
2. We want to start with what exists, the best projects, and see what we can do together.
3. We want to be able to keep the best ideas possible. Create the best stable versions, and explore new ideas with experimental ones.
4. Stick together to guarantee this can happen. Make room for everyone's vision, and have a plan for keeping disagreements productive and ongoing.
5. Keep from limiting ourselves or getting in each other's way, so that we can enjoy the creation process together and free our imagination.
Until I can put it simpler, clearer or better. I hope this gives everyone an idea of what could be.

 

[damerell]

Now don't get me wrong, I do think this idea has potential, but I don't think this more=better mentality is the right way to go.

Quite. In particular, C2C is impressive, but it's already far too far down that road. The "best" Civ game wants to be playable in an afternoon, not a week - and these enormous tech trees in practice mean if you're playing to win, you'll never get to the end. (That's already the case in vanilla Civ with elepults and suchlike - play C2C to win, you'll be lucky to make it 1/4 of the way up the tree.)

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Just for the record (I've already made my views on this idea clear), FFH was never an official civ expansion.
A scenario was included, but they weren't allowed to just port it over - all the work included in the expansion had to be newly made for it to be included (which is why they went out seperately and made FFH2).
I agree with damerell and Knoedel, and tbh think this idea will die stillborn.