The Mole: S&T's First Game Show!

Any thoughts on what tech to take from the Oracle? I ask not because I plan to complete the Oracle in 10 turns, but if I complete research on Priesthood, I'll need to know which tech to go after next in preparation for Oracling another tech.
 
Metal casting or civil service (doubtful on CS), probably.
 
It's probably recommended that you read this

Ok, so we are at Dhoom, so we are getting near the voting stage. Allow me to explain an important new rule for the voting stage.

When voting, PM me your vote. Voting ends after a certain amount of hours I will set after the last PM is sent in.

Extra Rules:

Eliminated players are NOT allowed to discuss about who they had voted for. They are still allowed to discuss other things in the thread, though.
You are allowed to say anything in the thread during the voting period. Planning or telling people who you may vote for is allowed
Lying is highly recommended. Do you trust the poster above you?
Only your PM vote counts
 
Regardless of whether I am the Mole, our Civ needs some help, so I am going to try and play a nice turnset. It would be all too easy to make us lose the game at this point.

Okay, first things first, it seems that some people are being rather vicious towards the decisions of others by way of signs:
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Sure, there is a Mole, but most of the players are not a Mole, so let's be a little bit nicer towards each other, alright? Not everyone thinks the same way that you do, so keep that thought in mind. There are much more polite ways of pointing out differences of opinion. Even if I am the Mole, I don't want to see that kind of fighting going on, okay?


We just completed our Pasture, so we can finally start working it. That means that we will finally be working more than a single improved square.

Current situation:
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Planned situation:
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Notice how we're about to grow to Size 4 but will only have 2 improved squares to work? What we will instead do is whip out a Work Boat. We will be down to Size 3 but we will be working 3 improved squares, which is not too bad of a situation for us to start building and Chopping out a second Worker, followed by Chopping out a Settler. After the Worker but before the Settler, we can complete our second Warrior.


I will set Espionage to a single target by assigning a Weight value. The goal here is to eventually get to see what a single AI is researching. If we don't focus the Espionage Points via this Weighting, then Espionage Points will be spread across a ton of different AIs and they will essentially go to waste. Also, when an AI sees that you are spending Espionage Points on them, they will spend more Espionage Points on you.

Espionage Points work BEST when the AI has spent very few points on you. So, a very strong strategy is to spend zero Espionage Points on most of the AIs until later in the game when you make a lot of Espionage Points per turn, and only THEN spent a lot on a new target, allowing you to catch said AI with their proverbial espionage pants down.

Hatshepsut has spent 0 Espionage Points on us to date, so we know that she knows at least 1 other AI but likely knows several other AIs. So, already we can get a feel for the fact that there are many AIs within striking distance.

We have access to a Horse Resource at our planned second City location, so I think that a much stronger move is going to be building Chariots and forgetting about The Oracle (at least until later).
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Right now, we don't even have The Wheel so we can't even connect-up Resources. We don't even have a second City. Metal Casting isn't going to be of use until we have about 6 Cities and Civil Service, while nice to get, won't be terribly useful, as we don't have a lot of riverside squares to put Cottages on.

However, Pottery WILL be very useful, as we'll be able to build Granaries in each of our newly-built Cities, allowing our empire to get off to a good start.

Since we don't have a Religion yet, I see no reason to complete research on Meditation. The sooner that we learn Meditation, the sooner that other AIs will learn it, meaning that they'll build The Oracle faster. If we truly want The Oracle, we should get Meditation and Priesthood after we have at least 3 Cities, to reduce the chances of an AI beating us to this Wonder.
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I'm also going to go exploring with our Warrior. We don't really fear the Barbs if there are multiple AIs around, as the AI units will "eat up" a lot of the Barb attacks. In the worst case, we can always put 1 turn worth of Hammers into a Warrior and then whip it, so that we will get 2 Warriors for the cost of 1 population point. That's enough safety as far as I am concerned.


I want to get that 2nd Worker out ASAP, so that the Chop-fest can begin.
 
Incase your done, you forgot the save.

Incase your not done, I just Ninja'd you :D

And guys, let's keep the signs to a level were they might not hurt somebody. Everyone makes mistakes, but if you feel offended, remember that it is just a game and sometimes, it may have been intended to offend you :p

Just don't forget that it's nothing personal
 
I am sorry to disappoint you, Yoshi, but I had only posted my pre-play plan in the last message. I was waiting to see if I would get any feedback on it, but since no one replied, I went ahead and played according to my stated plan.


After whipping out a Work Boat, we manually-built plus Chopped out a 2nd Worker.
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An AI learned Judaism and Pericles expanded to a second City location. The fact that the AIs are expanding is a good sign that we should be expanding shortly, too.
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I explored along the Coast so as to set up a potential future Coastal Trade Route towards the nearest AI. The nearest AI appeasr to be Genghis/Kublai, thanks to me popping a map from a Hut. Sorry that it was only a map--my Hut Luck is not very strong.
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Back home, we have discovered a second Fish. So, we should settle on top of the Horse Resource and turn that City into a Great Scientist factory.
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My recommendations for Olaf:
1. Finish Chopping that Settler (the Workers are already doing so)
2. Send the Settler to settle on top of the Horse Resource
3. City 2 should build Monument -> Granary
4. As soon as City 2 is founded, have it work the Sheep Resource
5. The capital, after building the Settler, should probably build something like: Work Boat -> Warrior -> Settler
6. City 2 should whip the Monument as soon as it reaches Size 2. By working the Sheep Resource, we should grow to Size 2 relatively quickly.
7. I would continue exploring along the Coast with both Warriors. Doing so will open up potential Trade Routes.
8. After Pottery, we should probably research Sailing -> Writing or Writing -> Sailing, so that we can get Foreign Trade Routes. The order that you research the techs probably won't matter too much, but whichever one you research first means being able to build and whip the relevant building in the capital eventually (a Lighthouse or a Library)
9. It should be a while before we see Barb Warriors, but if you are ever afraid, spend 1 turn building a Warrior, just to put at least 1 Hammer into that build item. On the following turn, whip the Warrior and then use the overflow Hammers to complete a second Warrior. BAM! Instant safety. Until then, we can finesse an empty capital.


I also marked-off some Forests that are good not to Chop. These Forests will help other Forests to regrow. The Plains Forests that we kept can also act as "mini Mines" since we don't have a lot of Mines in our area.

Those same Forests are good to build Roads on top of when connecting-up Resources like our Sheep. For example, where possible, we should NOT build a Road on a flatland that is next to a Forest. Instead, we should build the Road on top of any Forest that we do not plan to Chop. Note that if we plan to Chop a Forest, then it's not a great spot to build a Road.

As soon as we learn Sailing, we can trade away our Clam Resources and probably even our Sheep Resource to any AI that wants them. We have WAYYYYY too much Health to justify hogging these Resources to ourselves.


At some point in the future, we'll want to build Work Boats for our Fish Resources, but I don't think that City 2 will be ready to whip a second population poitn until mayor's turnset. mayor can therefore probably whip our Work Boats for City 2.
 

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Great turnset, Dhoom. :) We don't really have much else to settle, anyways - it looks like we have mostly desert and worthless plains to the north/northwest! We should think about making Genghis our first conquest target, once we pick up construction, though. I don't like the thought of having a Mongol neighbor.


Oh, and happy 4th for my Yankee brothers out there (are there any?).
 
it looks like we have mostly desert and worthless plains to the north/northwest!
You're right in that it doesn't look (so far) like a great map for peaceful expansion... but it could be a great map for building 10 Chariots and then attacking an AI (like Genghis/Kublai) with said Chariots.


once we pick up construction, though. I don't like the thought of having a Mongol neighbor.
10 Chariots should do the trick. We won't really need Catapults until probably our 3rd war.


If you want to see a Chariot rush, then check out my turnset reports in a different thread where I executed a Chariot rush from a single City (scroll up in that thread to see how I set up the initial City, but the linked message showcases the Chariot rushing itself and its effectiveness).

The same (rushing from a single City) can't be done here, since we don't have enough Mines in our capital and don't have a Horse Resource in our capital's fat cross, but after we have 3 Cities we can certainly spam essential buildings (Monuments, Granaries, Lighthouses, a couple of Libraries, and optionally Barracks) followed by 10+ Chariots.


Oh, and happy 4th for my Yankee brothers out there (are there any?).
Yes, Happy Independence Day (independence from the aliens)!
 
We really need to get our hills mined. This is why I went with a worker, so we could get the mines out/chopped...

One from many, Dhoom. ;)
 
We really need to get our hills mined.
One is being Mined as we speak (the Plains Hills Forest square).

Since we have been building a Worker and a Settler during my turnset, there was no need to work a Mine.

For example, since we are not Expansionist nor are we Imperialistic, we do not get a bonus to Hammer production for Workers or Settlers. Therefore, 1 Food = 1 Hammer when building a Settler.

Working a Plains Hills Mine = 4 Hammers = 4 Hammers in a Worker/Settler
Working a Grassland Hills Mine = 1 Food + 3 Hammers = 4 Hammers in a Worker/Settler
Working a Clam = 4 Food + 2 Commerce = 4 Hammers in a Worker/Settler PLUS 2 Commerce


I agree, though, that it will be nice to have Mines to work when we're building other build items besides Workers and Settlers and like I said, we're working towards this goal with our Workers.

Olaf can probably build a Mine on top of the Grassland Hills Forest square that is within our capital's fat cross.


One from many, Dhoom. ;)
Are you talking about the aliens?
 
It's the translated version of the US's motto. :p
 
Shouldn't it be "many from one" in this case, since you built a single Worker that was meant to Chop out a bunch of other things? :p


I PMed Olaf to tell him that his turnset is up but he replied saying that he can't play until tomorrow.
 
Thats a waste of trees, only forest chop when going after wonder. Besides my 2 friends who play Diety never chop trees...

edit: New page,
I don't like the fact we have 2 workers with little area to improve, 1 warrior who is a scout when we have 2 undefended cities (well almost 2). And that we stopped teching meditation half way through.

Explain why not teching meditation and preisthood would help us finish the Oracle faster? That is just pure confusion for me.
 
Thats a waste of trees, on forest chop when going after wonder. Besides my 2 friends who play Diety never chop trees...

Then they are not very good Deity players :p
 
Explain why not teching meditation and preisthood would help us finish the Oracle faster? That is just pure confusion for me.
A Wonder like The Great Lighthouse or The Pyramids is a World Wonder that you want to complete as early as possible, so as to gain the most benefit from it. Most Wonders fall into that category.

The Oracle is an exception case. The later in the game that you complete it, the greater the value you can get from it.

The only thing that prevents you from waiting until, say, 1200 AD to complete The Oracle and get the best tech that you possibly can get is the competition of The Oracle by the AIs happening first, in that one of the AIs beating you to the Wonder will be the only thing that stops you from getting a better tech.


AIs will piggyback off of research of any player that they know (human or AI) who has already completed research on a tech. This fact means that a tech that others know is a bit cheaper, which makes research slightly faster, but more importantly, encourages an AI to pick said tech when they throw a random number dice roll and combine that random number with other values to figure out which tech they will research next.

If we complete research on Meditation, then we will simply encourage every AI that we meet to research Meditation a bit faster. The same will be true if we complete research on Priesthood.

The sooner that the AIs research Meditation, the sooner that they will research Priesthood. The sooner that the AIs research Priesthood, the sooner that they will begin to build The Oracle. The sooner that the AIs begin to build The Oracle, the smaller the window of opportunity we will have to build it before they do, meaning that the potential benefit from The Oracle will be smaller.

Thus, anything that we can do to delay the AIs from learning Priesthood is a good thing to do.

Since we don't have an empire that is large enough to justify starting on The Oracle just yet, we're better off delaying research on the relevant techs so that we delay the AIs' research on the relevant techs, to delay the time when the AIs will start building The Oracle and thereby to maximize our potential benefit from The Oracle.


Or, that could be a bunch of paragraphs of complete b.s. and I am the Mole. Take your pick.
 
The Oracle is an exception case. The later in the game that you complete it, the greater the value you can get from it.
Now that's not quite true is it. Getting machinery in 500BC is much more useful than gun powder in the 1900's.
 
Now that's not quite true is it. Getting machinery in 500BC is much more useful than gun powder in the 1900's.
Maybe I should have said "the greater the relative value of the total Flasks obtained compared to the Hammer investment."

Still, now you're believing in the possibility of Machinery where before we were willing to settle for just Metal Casting.

There will, of course, be a "sweet spot" between delaying the completion of The Oracle (assuming that no AI is competing with you for it) versus simply taking 1 tech that will speed you along your way. Many players would feel comfortable in saying that Civil Service is one such "sweet spot," although getting that tech in BtS isn't trivial, due to its added Mathematics pre-requisite.
 
I have never heard of this AIs tech techs you have researched at a faster rate and am more likely to research them...

If that is the case I understand your decision, but if that is not the case, which that could just be complete BS, then you might be the mole or might just be confused.

Given that you are an immortal player, while I am a Monarch, I would trust your better judgement, but because of that you could predict that and infact be the mole.

Is their any evidence (any discussion thread) that mentions the AIs teching thechs you have researched?
 
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