The Mongols could have conquered Europe?

Sources please?

"He and a few loyal followers continued to the Papal States, where Pope Innocent III treated them kindly enough. The remaining ones departed for Germany after the Pontiff told them to be good and return home"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Crusade

I could find a better source, but I think that, and the absence of any evidence of papal encouragement should suffice.
 
TBH, the OP wasn't even an argument for anything, rather it was an argument against several factors which as far as I know haven't been brought up before, and have essentially been brought down already in this topic in support of your belief that they would not be able to conquer Europe.

Also, my two cents on some of the points you mentioned. Tartarus was the Ancient Greek name for one level of the underworld, of the Ancient Greek Pagan religion -- certainly not what most of Medieval Christian Europe was following and certainly not popular knowledge then. As someone already said the Pope commanded the Huns to kill their own horses, not the Mongols, and although he could have ordered everyone in Europe to kill themselves and destroy their property no one would have likely followed that order. All the occasions I can recall in history where a nation did that on purpose to stop an enemy still kept reasonable reserves of resources. As has already been said, unlike in China where there were one or two central authorities Europe was much too fragmented and no matter how many armies the Mongols defeated another would be standing in their way. Lastly, I doubt the Mongols could have taken England, considering their complete failure in attempting to invade Japan using the plentiful resources of China.
 
conquer Europe from Russia - "from" in the sense not only of a geostrategic direction, but "from" also meaning "relying chiefly on the manpower, economic power, and military might of". That's never actually happened, or even come sort of a little bit close to happening.

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It took all of Napoleon's political and strategical genius to get them that far west, but they got there! :D
 
They and the Austrians, Prussians, British, Spanish, Portuguese, and Swedes...:p
 
But wouldn't they have been trapped there? Wouldn't the other sides attack from behind as soon as they went after one? Remember Hannibal also fought the Romans there.
Firstly, how do you think the Mongols are making it that far west? Magic? Beaming up with Scotty? Secondly, how would they be trapped there? Was Hannibal trapped there? Has any army in the history of EVER been trapped in the Po River Valley. It's not a canyon, and if it was it's the sort of place the Mongols would lure their enemies, not the sort of place they'd blindly file into themselves.

I really have no idea what you're going on about. Your OP was next-to-unintelligible, and your subsequent posts haven't gotten any better. Please, try to explain your points better, so we can attempt to answer them for you.
 
Obvious answer. Il Pape was going to order Europeans to invent: trenches, barbed wire, indirect fire, machine-guns and bolt action rifles.
 
Firstly, how do you think the Mongols are making it that far west? Magic? Beaming up with Scotty? Secondly, how would they be trapped there? Was Hannibal trapped there? Has any army in the history of EVER been trapped in the Po River Valley. It's not a canyon, and if it was it's the sort of place the Mongols would lure their enemies, not the sort of place they'd blindly file into themselves.

I really have no idea what you're going on about. Your OP was next-to-unintelligible, and your subsequent posts haven't gotten any better. Please, try to explain your points better, so we can attempt to answer them for you.

Sorry. One of the theories I have heard against the Mongol invasion is that once the Mongols had gotten past Venice, they would have been in the Po river valley. The Italian states would have been beneath them and the Holy Roman Empire, France, and Genoa would have been above them (barring a way straight up out of the Alps). As soon as they attacked one way, the others would have decided that the time was right to invade and the Mongols would have been crushed. At least that's the idea.
 
Obvious answer. Il Pape was going to order Europeans to invent: trenches, barbed wire, indirect fire, machine-guns and bolt action rifles.

Too bad the Mongols invented gas bombs and long range artillery...
 
Sorry. One of the theories I have heard against the Mongol invasion is that once the Mongols had gotten past Venice, they would have been in the Po river valley. The Italian states would have been beneath them and the Holy Roman Empire, France, and Genoa would have been above them (barring a way straight up out of the Alps). As soon as they attacked one way, the others would have decided that the time was right to invade and the Mongols would have been crushed. At least that's the idea.

Ok, some questions you need to ask yourself. I'm not saying you're wrong because of them, just that you need to answer them in order for this argument to make any sense.

Why are the Mongols filing into Northern Italy? How are they moving their armies, siege engines, and camp followers around in what should be much more difficult terrain from the steppes and the Hungarian plain? How are they feeding the thousands or millions of horses they must be bringing along?

Why would a French king, in a time when they were pre-occupied with fighting regional (read: Angevins) and internal rivals, be interested in devoting resources to a barbarian horde ravaging a strategically distant locale?

Why is the Emperor ready to defend the Northern Italian city states? Yes, they were nominally part of the Empire, but they had spent the last hundred years or so trying to fight their way out of the Imperial grip (fairly successfully). It seems like the much wiser course of action is to let this Horde ravage the Italians, then march down and restore order afterwards.

In what sense is Genoa above the Po River Valley?

And finally, even if a Mongol force should find itself trapped between the forces you've envisaged, what stops them from simply fighting their way out? I would estimate any such Mongol army as far superior to the armies fielded by Europeans at the time. Certainly breaking one of them and slipping out through the gap would be within reach of a Mongol leader who had made it that far.
 
Any Mongol leader capable of conquering Venice of all places is more than capable of breaking out of an envelopement.
 
Moreover, you'd think that if the 'trap' would be guessable by Mouthwash, a 21st century apparent arm-chair general, any seasoned commander would see it from miles away, and then avoid it.
 
Khwarezm.

I thought the invasion of Khwarezm was in revenge for the King (yeah I know that wasn't the actual title, but I forget what it was) killing off the Mongol trade embassy.
 
Brian Shanahan said:
I thought the invasion of Khwarezm was in revenge for the King (yeah I know that wasn't the actual title, but I forget what it was) killing off the Mongol trade embassy.

Started as a raid in strength, ended up being an invasion.

Also, Shah.
 
I thought the invasion of Khwarezm was in revenge for the King (yeah I know that wasn't the actual title, but I forget what it was) killing off the Mongol trade embassy.

I don't know about real life, but this is how it went down in the Age of Kings campaign. :p
 
many times a lark becomes serious as time pass and becomes the reality , with later people unaware . It is quite possible that a possibility in a discussion became the truth as time went by . ı could even swear this was to be an Ottoman thing first , before we had enough ships and the retort was even the Mongols couldn't do it ; Mongols being twice as bad since they defeated us mongrels anytime they wanted .
 
Started as a raid in strength, ended up being an invasion.

Also, Shah.

Ah so my first guess as to the title was right. Thought Shah would have been anachronistic.

So it was a revenge raid that turned into an invasion then?
 
Something like that.
 
As you admit, Europe had people. Plenty of people. That's a huge military and economic advantage against an invader that absolutely cannot move large numbers into the territory.

Europe didn't have especially large populations. And besides, the Mongols would have brought the plague with them, which would have wiped out a great deal of the opposition. Of course, it would have effected the Mongols as well, but less so as they knew how to avoid it.

There simply was no way for the mongols to transfer large armies across the wastelands of Asia to attack Europe, even if they did tried to leverage on their chinese resources.

They wouldn't really need to. When Tamerlane conquered his massive Empire and wiped the floor with all the great powers surrounding him, he didn't have the resources of China with him, nor did the Mughals when they descended upon India. All of them fought as the Mongols did, with overwhelming Nomadic military superiority.

They'd have to conquer and submit large numbers of europeans, then use them to attack the rest of Europe. It was not going to happen: they never even managed to subdue the princes of the Rus, only get the occasional tribute mixed with rebellions.

No. The Mongols subdued the Rus without a doubt. If you read the history of the Mongol invasion of the Rus, it is a very onesided war in which the Mongols effortlessly destroyed one army after another and then proceeded to sack the cities. Pskov and Novgorod were the only major cities to avoid sacking.

The legacy of the Mongol yoke shaped Russia politically, especially Muscowy, possibly as much as the Byzantine legacy shaped Russia in culture. The Golden Horde was known as the Golden horde because of the amount of funds they managed to extract from their subjects, which was fortune. This was hardly an "occasional" tribute that the Rus paid when they felt like it.

The reason why the Mongols never simply conquered the Rus and subjugate them directly is probably a combination of the lack of local centralized administration (present in China and Persia) and the Mongol's own lack of interest in administrative duties. The Mongols, especially the Golden Horde, always saw themselves as a predatory elite, who sought to extract what they wanted from the weaker peoples. This predatory philosophy culminated in the Empire of Tamerlane, whose idea of empire was to attack everyone, steal whatever they've got and bring it to his capital in Samarkand. This was more or less the reason for their religious liberalism: they really didn't care about religious issues.

Incidentally, it was Tamerlane who broke the back of the Golden Horde. Not Russians.

Europe, unlike northern China, was too fragmented and too foreign to be conquered and then controlled by the mongols. The mongols who did get there across Asia as reinforcements would be constantly ground down fighting rebellions.

Political fragmentation is a weakness, not strength in this discussion. Political fragmentation would have meant that the Mongols could have just dealt with them more easily, especially in the short term, which is important in the question whether they can conquer them. In discussion of long term rule, political fragmentation is a definite disadvantage for the Mongols and yes, this would have made a Mongol yoke in Germany fairly short-lived.

The mongols, like the Romans, the Arabs, or the Ottomans at the maximum extent of their empires, were pushing the limits of what with their technology could be controlled by a single imperial center, or even a single people, without losing its cohesiveness, without losing the ability of suppression rebellions. Their limits were larger because their mobility (nomads on horseback -> faster communications) was greater than the military of those other empires, but they had reached them in eastern Europe, in the territory of what became the Golden Horde.

The Mongol Empire was not a single entity. It was composed of many Mongol Empires from the start of its greater Asian extension. The Ilkhanate and the other Khanates were created with that understanding more or less obvious to the Mongols. Even so, there is no reason to presume that the Mongol Empire was over-extended. It had a very fast system of internal communication: a Khan in Moghulistan would have been informed of the events in Germany faster than the Roman Emperor in the Persian front was informed of the Gothic invasion of Thrace.

In the end, it was the fragile tribal nature of the Mongol empire that was the reason for its stagnation and disintegration, not vague reasons of over-extension.

It is proof of their military success that they did reach those limits (not that I'm accepting that the mongols would have fared well fighting in Germany, for example), but logistics were always the ultimate limitation on empires with successful armies.

Logistically, there is nothing preventing the Mongols from moving a large army from China to Russia and then further west. It is once they enter hostile territory that dangers of attrition really begin. Germany is not that different from China, so I don't see why they would not have wiped the floor with the small disorganized German bands that Europe called "armies". Mongols would not have been the first steppe nomads to dominate Germany (Huns did it before them with far less resources, and Germania was not empty woodland as is mistakenly believed).
 
Europe didn't have especially large populations. And besides, the Mongols would have brought the plague with them, which would have wiped out a great deal of the opposition. Of course, it would have effected the Mongols as well, but less so as they knew how to avoid it.
The Plague is as yet a century into the future, and we are looking pretty much at the peak of the High Middle Ages, when the good farmland is pretty much all under the plow and the population is just about to start being edged out into the increasingly less fertile marginal lands for crops. Precisely when the Mongols turn up European populations are at their peak. Between them the major western European population centres of France, Italy, Germany and Spain would rack up in the order of 50 million people, with about a third in France alone (maybe up to 20 million). Even little England get estimates in the range 5-7 million. Not that any single prince would be able to call up all this manpower, but there certainly were plenty of people. Overall estimates for Europe around 1250 is in the range of 70-100 million. It might not have been more populous than China, but hardly much less either.
 
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