The Murdering Of Timothy McVeigh would be a Hate Crime by the Americian People

[Johan511]

I haven't thought that much about the dude, even after you guys had say something about it, but tonight my path strayed to his and this is my found truth on the situation....I mean the guy caused over 100 deaths, and now we want to kill him....it's like fear and loathing -- 5 minutes ago you were begging me to kill you, now you want to kill me, I think I should just call the ****ing police.
When human kind strikes back with death we are just pouting because we feel unsafe in the world. People are going to do what they have to do. And one day in a fit of anger your next door neighbor might just up and kill you, or call the cops on you about something cause he feels it's the rightetous thing to do. Now we can't go killin people that kill people, it just seems dumb to me....THINK ABout IT!??
This whole death penelty is just another crime America is trying to hold on too. Just like they love to believe that Marijuana has no cause in our society, or it's an evil one. GIVE ME A BREAK!
LONG LIVE FREEDOM!

I live it -- But i'm a misfit in my region...LOL

P.S. I think that People that Kill people are the people I would want to spend my TaX dollars keepin in prision forever....and Not people who become fond of the spirtial rite of substance.
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[This message has been edited by Johan511 (edited June 07, 2001).]

 

[NeelaX]

I agree...obviously McVeigh, and others like him, laugh in the face of death, and really do not have any respect for death whatsoever...therefore death as punishment, especially by lethal injection is dumb. Speaking as a mother, and lover, even the thought of my family being killed in a terrible incident perpetrated by McVeigh, makes me sick. He was wrong in his approach to make a point to the government. 2 wrongs do not make a right. . .He messed up big time in this life, and I think he should spend the rest of it loathing over how messed up his life is, after a life of prison. I think the better punishment would be life in prison..or a dungeon..hehe

 

[SunTzu]

I wish they would show his execution on the Television. He will get what he deserve's, not only is he a mass murderer, but he's a traitor to the USA. Both counts deserve the death penalty.

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[RedWolf]

Originally posted by SunTzu:
I wish they would show his execution on the Television. He will get what he deserve's, not only is he a mass murderer, but he's a traitor to the USA. Both counts deserve the death penalty.

Why's he a traitor? A criminal and a murderer... absolutely. But i don't know if I can use the word traitor.

My biggest problem with what McVeigh did was that he killed innocent people.. Many of them children and many adults not affiliated with an opressive government agency.

However I personally believe that the ATF is fair game.

note: It's not that i believe all ATF agents deserve to die... Just that when you belong to an organization that makes war on the American people - you can hardly be considered "not a target" when those people make war back... If Tim McVeigh and started blowing up ATF buildings for instance.. i would consider that more of a "revolution". Although that would still be considered "criminal" under the law I'm not sure if I can consider it immoral or traitorous. Killing enemy soldiers in war has never been considered unethical.


[This message has been edited by RedWolf (edited June 08, 2001).]

 

[SunTzu]

Mcveigh is apart of an anti-government organization and he attacked the US Government hence the US Federal building that was bombed in Oklahoma City, An American who conspires against the Government is a traitor and should be executed

 

[RedWolf]

Ok... i thought some more about what i was trying to say... I don't want to sound like a crazy.

I don't consider revolution traitorous when the causes are right. I actually to a point respect McVeigh for his beliefs and his courage to stand up to the government. Mindlessly loving your country without question is dangerous.

I even believe that the government DESERVED to take damage for it's actions in WACO and Ruby Ridge... However McVeigh went about it in completely the wrong way. He killed innocents and CHILDREN. He had no quarrel with them and they none with him. In avenging those killed on the Davidian compound and Ruby Ridge he simply caused the horrific death of MORE innocents. It doesn't even make sense.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

It may sound very old testament, but I say let the punishment fit the crime.
A large number of people, including many innocent children were murdered so this man could "make his point".
He is unrepentant, and refers to the children as "collateral damage".
If life has so little meaning to this man, then it should most certainly be removed.
I can find no sympathy for this person, and no forgiveness.
He is just another terrorist out to make his point, so let his end be the punctuation mark to his message.
Those people had their lives stolen from them, this animal deserves no less.
We destroy mad dogs, and this man is no better then that, in fact, he's much worse, as he fully intended to kill for a "cause", and would do so again.

I think it is impressive that some of you would fight for a life, even this monstrous baby killer, but I believe that he is not worth saving.

Some crimes are to heinous to let go with just jail time, and I believe this is one of those crimes.

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[RedWolf]

Scorn McVeigh if you want.

Just never forget where he got the term "collateral damage" from. The federal government which so easily bombs foreign nations at will.

How much "collateral damage" took place during the Gulf War? Iraqi children are STILL dieing to this day due to crippling economic sanctions.

Clinton got embroiled in a sex scandal and he bombs afghanistan. oops. Some collateral damage there.

The WACO incident was one big example of collateral damage. Koresh has some illegal weapons? Well that crime is so serious that we lay siege to his compound and then burn it down burning how many children alive? More collateral damage.

FBI sharp shooter puts a bullet in Randy Weaver's wife AND small child - collateral damage. Weaver was aquitted of all charges by the way.

Lots of collateral damage in Bosnia...probably some in Somalia... TONS in both Vietnam and Korea...

We dropped a nuke on Hiroshama to end world war II... 130,000 collateral damages there.


Again.. I'mnot saying that what McVeigh did was right.. and I'm not passing judgement on your governments actions (well I AM for some of the above listed things) BUT my point has always been that your government/society created him. He's not animal.. he's a person that was pushed to the breaking point by what he saw as injustice.

Why did he think that killing more children would solve the problem? I don't know. He deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison.. but I don't HATE him and yet I don't feel sorry for him...

I just can't get all worked up over this whole thing. I refuse to get involved in this lynch mob mentality... especially when most of the people that are calling for his blood won't be taking a look at their OWN government's actions any time soon.

 

[SunTzu]

We can pick on as many nations as we want, who can stop us. Canada?

j/k about the canada part but the rest is the truth

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[Andu Indorin]

Just a question on the origin of this statement:

Originally posted by RedWolf:
We dropped a nuke on Hiroshama to end world war II... 130,000 collateral damages there.

Again.. I'mnot saying that what McVeigh did was right.. and I'm not passing judgement on your governments actions.

Just want to check which country you're embroiling in this debate. ...

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by RedWolf:
Why's he a traitor? A criminal and a murderer... absolutely. But I don't know if I can use the word traitor.

You are obviously entirely ignorant of the legal maiming of traitor here and in most countries, which is somewhat different than you would use the word in casual conversation (someone doing something treacherous to their country). The crime treason is someone waging war against their sovereign. In the USA is is defined very simply in the constitution as a US Citizen waging war against the US.
Thus what is not treason is aiding foreign counties against whom we are not engaged in some minimum level of hostilities (that level is the gray area in the law). Selling secrets to Israel or to Russia when we are not fighting them is not treason, just espionage.
All the following are if the person is a US citizen. Executing terror attacks against the US is a traitor. All persons who fought for the Confederacy were traitors (blanket amnesty after the war). Separatists who declare themselves independent and use violence are traitors. Selling secrets to a nation we are fighting is treason.
Also the death penalty is is specifically designated in the constitution for treason, and thus cannot not be barred by any court decision on the grounds that is is an inappropriate or excessive punishment for treason.
McViegh is the clearest example of treason in the us since since the US Civil War, and indeed the charge of treason was considered against him. but not prosecuted to reduce adding more politics to the trail and opportunity for extremist propaganda.

[This message has been edited by Lefty Scaevola (edited June 09, 2001).]

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by Andu Indorin:
Just a question on the origin of this statement:

Just want to check which country you're embroiling in this debate. ...

I'm not embroiling any country into this debate.

I'm just telling you where McVeigh learned the term "collateral damage". It comes from the belief that when you kill civilians in war it's sad.. but unavoidable - part of the nature of armed conflict. Americans keep saing how McVeigh's a monster and to prove this they often use his "collateral damage" comment. Well he didn't make it up and he's not the first person to hold that belief.

As for the meaning of the word treason... "Treason" is really a funny word. It's really created bythe ruling class to give them a crime to prosecute anybody that disagrees with their policies/power.

You claim that the confederate states were traitors. I don't see it that way. I believe that all people have a right to self determination and self rule.

I hold no grudge against the confederate soldiers/politicians/generals. They were acting upon the will of their people and were fighting for the right to govern themselves because they felt washnington no longer represented their best interests. What greater form of democracy is there than that?

Following that logic America is a country of traitors since they seperated from England and declared independence. (of course they arent considered traitors though because they WON)

Traitors are only considered traitors when they lose. When a traitor achieves the desired goals they become heroes.

 

[SunTzu]

The reason we dropped the bombs is because Allied Generals figured with Japanese Kamikaze mentallity they would fight to the death and an invasion of Japan would lead up to 1million Allied Casualties!
Get your facts straight redwolf

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[RedWolf]

Sun Tzu:

Please read me post again. Notice that I put the disclaimer in: "...I'm not passing judgement on your governments actions "

I did this because I KNEW that people like you would jump all over my ass. It didn't help. You still got all worked up over it.

That said... I know EXACTLY why the nuclear weapons were dropped on Japan. And to be honest I have even always supported their use. They were a poor solution to a bad war (war by definition is BAD) -but were probably the BEST solution available at the time. We didn't ask for that war but we decided to finish it. Too bad for Japan. We did what had to be done.

My point IS and has always been that before you start calling McVeigh a monster look a little closer at your federal government. THEY created Tim McVeigh.

 

[Questerr]

Qoute:
"How much "collateral damage" took place during the Gulf War? Iraqi children are STILL dieing to this day due to crippling economic sanctions.

Clinton got embroiled in a sex scandal and he bombs afghanistan. oops. Some collateral damage there.

The WACO incident was one big example of collateral damage. Koresh has some illegal weapons? Well that crime is so serious that we lay siege to his compound and then burn it down burning how many children alive? More collateral damage.

FBI sharp shooter puts a bullet in Randy Weaver's wife AND small child - collateral damage. Weaver was aquitted of all charges by the way.

Lots of collateral damage in Bosnia...probably some in Somalia... TONS in both Vietnam and Korea...

We dropped a nuke on Hiroshama to end world war II... 130,000 collateral damages there."

First: The Gulf War was a WAR. People die during WAR, most of them non-combatants.

Second: The bombing of Afghanistan was carried out with bad intel, bad planning, and without the permission or cusultations of the Afghan gov. It was a mistake and yes, the US shood make reparations, or atleast catch Osama Bin Laden.

Third: Koresh had a arsenal of ILLEGALLY modified MACHINE GUNS (IE: M2 .50cals, M-16's, etc.), hundreds of grenades and explosives, and a few thousand rounds of ammo. Now I support the right to bear arms but the government was justified in the Waco action. In my opinion, the Davidians set the fires themselves, remember the were a Doomsday religous cult.

Fourth: Ruby Ridge was a ****-storm, nobody knew what was going on until it was over.

Fifth: Bosnia, Somalia, Vietnam, and Korea were all WARS!!!!!!! See Number 1.

Sixth: We dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to save Allied lives. Here's an example:
The spearhead of the Japanese home island invasion was to be the 5th Marine Division, the largest, most expierienced, and best equipped Allied unit in the area. After D-Day+5, there is no longer a mention of this 75,000 man unit in the plans. THEY WERE ASSUMED TO BE WIPED OUT!!!!!!

You need to understand your history before you open your mouth!!!

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by Questerr:
Qoute:

You need to understand your history before you open your mouth!!!

SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DID YOU NOT READ MY LAST FRIGGIN POST!!!
IF NOT THEN READ IT! RIGHT FRIGGIN NOW!

READ IT!!!!!

BEFORE YOU OPEN *YOUR* MOUTH!!!

I SAID THAT I DID IN FACT AGREE WITH THE DROPPING OF THE TWO ATOMIC BOMBS!!!!!!! I KNOW MY HISTORY AND AGREE THAT THEY WERE NEEDED TO SAVE ALLIED LIVES. I said they were a bad solution.. but probably the BEST solution.

Regardless of what Koresh did... those children certainly didn't deserve to die. ESPECIALLY for illegal weapons charges. It was known that Koresh left his compund frequently... he could have been picked up at any time. Instead the government decided to use this massive show of force... and it blew up in their face. THEN to show that they wouldn't back down they waited him out. When THAT failed they attacked AGAIN in a show of force causing the estruction of the entire compound. They were directly responsible for those deaths (regardless of how the fire started). Did you realize that the fire fighting equipment was over a half hour away AND got stopped at the checkpoints by the federal agents for some reason?

That blood is on Reno's hands.

I'll restate my point once again because people would rather get mad at me then actually LISTEN to what I'm saying.

"COLLATERAL DAMAGE" the term everyone uses to show what a monster McVeigh is, was NOT created by HIM.

My point is simply that the society/government tat now finds him so revolting created him. The death penalty is simply a method to "make it go away" so that you can stop being reminded of that....

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Hey Red,

While I don't agree that the gov't created McVeigh per se (he had every choice to do what everyone else did about it: all sorts of things that don't kill people) ... what I do see in your posts is another way to see McVeigh and understand "how he could have done such a thing."

Before I continue, I'm making it clear: he shouldn't have done it. That said, I can see where he might have approached it as a valid military strike, in his war with the gov't that he saw in his mind. If so, he would view and talk about the casualties the same way folks here have talked about the other casualities of war. People here have said things like "in war, people die" and "in war, there is collateral damage, often of civilians". What I see is how McVeigh would see it that way.

While he shouldn't have done it, and this possible point of view doesn't JUSTIFY anything, I don't see him as a monster or a crazy lunatic, either. He just had enough of something important to him (gov't interference) and declared a one-man (we think) war on the gov't. His first, and only, military strike was the Murrah building. He also came close to getting away (I remember reports of how he got caught, almost by accident) and making further strikes later. In his mind, he "took out" much of the enemy forces at that location as planned. The civilians were collateral damage. Mission accomplished, SIR! Fortunately for all of us, unless he worked with others we don't know about, that war is now over and the war crimes tribunal has passed sentence, to be "executed" (pardon the pun/double meaning) Monday. Now I don't claim that is necessarily true because I don't know the mind of Tim McVeigh (though 2 gents who spent 75 hours with him wrote a book about what they saw), it's a possibility.

But underneath all this, what's truly appalling is the way we speak, without emotion, of the death of a person or group of people IFF it's the enemy. As if that justifies being so cold about it. We speak of our dead (Pearl Harbor comes to mind) as heros and "how could those sick bastards do such a thing to our loved ones and our countrymen?!" Yet, we turn around and do it to someone else and call the dead, even the innocents, "casualties of war", without a twinge or a tear or even batting an eye. We are all human beings on the same planet and in both cases human beings died. But we care about the people (the majority of which we don't personally know) who died who happen to live inside of our arbitrary line in the sane, and we don't give a damn about the people we don't know who happen to live outside that line. From space, the only clear boundary is our atmosphere. Why aren't we caring about every human being?

That's the part that disturbs me.
Spiff

 

[BorderPatrol]

ok this is really a sad topic. It is one of those lose, lose situations.

First of all, two wrongs don't make a right. Killing McVeigh is not going to in anyway bring back all of those people dying senselessly in that bombing. If anything it makes him a martyr because he is dying for a reason.

But in this country for our psychological health we almost need the death penalty to balance out all of the horrific images we see and hear about everyday in this country.

Do I think it is right to kill Timmothy McVeigh? No. Will I feel a sense of relief and a sense of closure when he is dead? Sadly, yes.

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[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by BorderPatrol:
First of all, two wrongs don't make a right. Killing McVeigh is not going to in anyway bring back all of those people dying senselessly in that bombing. If anything it makes him a martyr because he is dying for a reason.

Execution is not killing. It is not murder. It is certainly not a wrong. It is justice, pure and simple.

It will not bring back his victims? That is moot. It is not the intent of an execution to reverse the past. Executions are performed to supply society with justice. When a life is taken by force, justice demands that it be repaid in kind.

If McVeigh is to be a martyr, then let it be so. If others are to follow in his footsteps, let them. Being willing to die for a cause is part and parcel of the revolutionary spirit. When enough of them die, or they kill enough Americans, one of three things will happen: either they will be annihilated, or their message will be heard, or they will change their tactics to something more likely to work, like non-violent demonstration.

 

[Johan511]

None of YOU, not any one person or nation has the right to pass the judgement of death on ANOTHER MAN....
I know that some of you under stand this concept but FearlessLeader2 just tried to tell me that.

Execution is not killing. It is not murder. It is certainly not a wrong. It is justice, pure and simple.

But he has simply not thought out the situation to be his own within the great perception of life.

FL2 think for amount about the future...and see that if This American is excuted that you CAN BE TOO.
and millions of others on a whim. Now think about what is standing in it's way....CERTAINLY? NOT YOU.

PEACE...I LOVE THE WORLD

DEBATE is the key ;P

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