The neoliberal left

[Lexicus]

That seems incompatible with your constant cries of 'racism'.

I'd say that the kind of bigotry you espouse is what needs to go.

"Whiteness is a harmful social construct" is not bigotry. It would be rather difficult for me to be bigoted against white people, because I'm about as white as they get. Whiteness is a lot like 'nobility.' Being anti-white is no different, and no more bigoted, than being anti-noble or anti-royalist. It simply means you don't believe that some people have the right to set themselves above others.

Glad I could help. Perhaps that will make you realize, then, that what you propose will never happen, that you have no realistic solutions, but somehow I doubt it.

Maybe right now it's unrealistic, but I'm not sure it will be forever. In the meantime there are plenty of intermediate steps we can take to ensure more equitable outcomes but I'm guessing you don't support any of those because you are exactly the kind of white person described in that interview.

 

[Katie88]

"Whiteness is a harmful social construct" is not bigotry. It would be rather difficult for me to be bigoted against white people, because I'm about as white as they get. Whiteness is a lot like 'nobility.' Being anti-white is no different, and no more bigoted, than being anti-noble or anti-royalist. It simply means you don't believe that some people have the right to set themselves above others.

You said 'I'm anti-white'. It doesn't get any plainer than that.

If someone said, 'I'm anti-black' or I'm anti-Jewish' and then came out with a load of guff about 'social constructs', I should probably be able to hear your shrieks of 'racism!!!!!' from here.

Maybe right now it's unrealistic, but I'm not sure it will be forever. In the meantime there are plenty of intermediate steps we can take to ensure more equitable outcomes but I'm guessing you don't support any of those because you are exactly the kind of white person described in that interview.

I'm pretty sure it will be, because parents always want what is best for their children. That is highly unlikely to change.

Why don't you ask me what my position is rather than telling me?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

It's entirely possible to be against white privilege in society without hating white people. That's what Lexicus is talking about and you know it (he's said as much multiple times).

 

[Katie88]

It's entirely possible to be against white privilege in society without hating white people. That's what Lexicus is talking about and you know it (he's said as much multiple times).

I find the whole discourse absurd. Does anyone talk about 'Japanese privilege' in Japan, 'Jewish privilege' in Israel, or 'black privilege' in Nigeria?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yes, yes and yes?

Racism is alive an well in Japan and Israel. I don't know about Nigeria. Point being that those are not our countries and we cannot change them. We can confront the issues our country faces and white privilege is one of them.

To pretend it isn't a problem is to put your head in the sand at best or (most likely in your case) gaslighting at worst.

 

[Katie88]

Yes, yes and yes?

Racism is alive an well in Japan and Israel. I don't know about Nigeria. Point being that those are not our countries and we cannot change them. We can confront the issues our country faces and white privilege is one of them.

To pretend it isn't a problem is to put your head in the sand at best or (most likely in your case) gaslighting at worst.

You're shifting the goalposts. I'm talking about the discourse surrounding 'white privilege' in whites, compared to, say, 'Japanese privilege' in Japan, 'Jewish privilege' in Israel, or 'black privilege' in Nigeria. Does it exists in this countries? I think we both know the answer.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I've already answered that question in the affirmative for Japan and Israel. The goal posts haven't moved, you just turned up the gas in the lamp.

 

[Katie88]

I've already answered that question in the affirmative for Japan and Israel. The goal posts haven't moved, you just turned up the gas in the lamp.

You've clearly not understood my point, and are now just insulting me with silly nonsense.

Let me put it another way: Is anyone in, say, Japan advancing a discourse of 'Japaneseness is just a social construct; we need to fight 'Japanese privilege'; to make our society less Japanese, etc.'?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

And that has anything to do with the US how? And I've already answered that specific question anyhow - we cannot change what they do so it doesn't matter to this discussion. You're just throwing up flak.

 

[Katie88]

It has everything to do with why I find the discourse absurd.

The fact that you can't answer, or rather that you know full well what the answer is but won't, speaks volumes.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I agree you think I am dumb and deceitful.

 

[Lexicus]

Let me put it another way: Is anyone in, say, Japan advancing a discourse of 'Japaneseness is just a social construct; we need to fight 'Japanese privilege'; to make our society less Japanese, etc.'?

"Japanese" is as much a social construct as "whiteness," actually, but "Japanese," (like "French," or "British", or "Nigerian", etc.) isn't a necessarily harmful one (except inasmuch as nationalism is bad, but I don't want to get into that right now). Whiteness, like nobility, is a social construct that functions by defining and dispossessing an underclass. For a nobility to exist, there must be an oppressed peasantry. For "white people" to exist, there must be oppressed people of color. For capitalists to exist, there must be an oppressed working class. And so on.

Your dishonest (or perhaps ignorant) rhetorical sleight of hand is in comparing "white", which is a racial category, with nationalities. "White" is not a nationality. It is not a category comparable to "Nigerian," "Japanese," or "Israeli."

It's interesting you bring up Israel - I do indeed believe that Israel needs to lose its explicitly "Jewish" character because the alternative is maintaining a system of apartheid to dispossess and disenfranchise much of its population.

Why don't you ask me what my position is rather than telling me?

You've already signaled what your position is. But sure, if you want to explain it more clearly go for it.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The Japanese are top-tier racists and discriminators. They don't pretend to be an open culture and there are not a ton of non-Japanese in the country by design. But those that are there are heavily discriminated against in a way that would make Strom Thurmond proud.

 

[Lexicus]

RIP the Ainu

 

[Katie88]

"Japanese" is as much a social construct as "whiteness," actually, but "Japanese," (like "French," or "British", or "Nigerian", etc.) isn't a necessarily harmful one (except inasmuch as nationalism is bad, but I don't want to get into that right now).

So whether a race or nationality needs to be destroyed is based on how harmful you believe it to be? No thanks.

Whiteness, like nobility, is a social construct that functions by defining and dispossessing an underclass. For a nobility to exist, there must be an oppressed peasantry. For "white people" to exist, there must be oppressed people of color. For capitalists to exist, there must be an oppressed working class. And so on.

I simply reject this premise.

Your dishonest (or perhaps ignorant) rhetorical sleight of hand is in comparing "white", which is a racial category, with nationalities. "White" is not a nationality. It is not a category comparable to "Nigerian," "Japanese," or "Israeli."

It's interesting you bring up Israel - I do indeed believe that Israel needs to lose its explicitly "Jewish" character because the alternative is maintaining a system of apartheid to dispossess and disenfranchise much of its population.

It's amusing that you talk about dishonesty and then go and change the words I used. I said 'Jewish', 'black', and 'Japanese'.

I think race and ethnicity are interchangable in this context, and indeed you admitted so yourself above. Also, while Europeans have their own identities, as I understand it, Americans of European decent see themselves as 'white Americans', but obviously distinct from other white people. This is also true in some other racially diverse new world countries like Brazil. So your distinction doesn't have much practical value.

You're welcome to your views on Israel, but the point, as I'm sure you know, is whether Israelis are talking about 'Jewish privilege' or the Japanese are talking about 'Japanese privilege' and how to fight it, etc. They are not, of course.

You've already signaled what your position is. But sure, if you want to explain it more clearly go for it.

How could I have signalled any position on your ideas if I don't know what they are? I rejected your one proposal because, quite apart from anything else, it will never happen.

 

[Katie88]

I agree you think I am dumb and deceitful.

That's not what I said, and I see no need for you to put words in my mouth.

 

[Lexicus]

I simply reject this premise.

Why though? Because it makes you uncomfortable? Can you explain? If you can't, then further discussion will be pointless as this is the crux of the issue here. Until you grok race as social construct rather than as biology, we will be talking at cross-purposes and you will be lost in a reactionary mire.

It's amusing that you talk about dishonesty and then go and change the words I used. I said 'Jewish', 'black', and 'Japanese'.

Ah right, "black privilege in Nigeria," yes. Doesn't really make any sense to talk about that. But it is profoundly ignorant for you to think that actually means anything about, say, white privilege in the United States or Europe.

indeed you admitted so yourself above.

Where? Incidentally, it's funny that you accuse me of dishonesty for "chang[ing] the words I used" when you changed my "nationality" to "ethnicity" here.

You're welcome to your views on Israel, but the point, as I'm sure you know, is whether Israelis are talking about 'Jewish privilege' or the Japanese are talking about 'Japanese privilege' and how to fight it, etc. They are not, of course.

Why does it matter whether they're talking about it? There are people in Japan who are talking about these problems, though not to my knowledge in terms of privilege. So what? Japanese privilege is very much a thing in Japan. Ask the Ainu if you don't believe me. And I happen to know that the Israeli left is having a conversation about white privilege and other forms of privilege in Israel. The Israeli left is so small these days that it's not surprising you didn't notice it.

 

[Katie88]

Why though? Because it makes you uncomfortable? Can you explain? If you can't, then further discussion will be pointless as this is the crux of the issue here. Until you grok race as social construct rather than as biology, we will be talking at cross-purposes and you will be lost in a reactionary mire.

Because it's an unsupported assertion. And it's interesting that you focus on the first part, as a social construct rather than biology, and not the second that explains the supposed basis.

Ah right, "black privilege in Nigeria," yes. Doesn't really make any sense to talk about that. But it is profoundly ignorant for you to think that actually means anything about, say, white privilege in the United States or Europe.

So the whole 'privilege' discourse is for white countries and only white countries. Your anti-white bigotry is showing I'm afraid.

Where? Incidentally, it's funny that you accuse me of dishonesty for "chang[ing] the words I used" when you changed my "nationality" to "ethnicity" here.

Try reading my post to see where. And 'French', 'Japanese', etc. are ethnicities, too.

Why does it matter whether they're talking about it? There are people in Japan who are talking about these problems, though not to my knowledge in terms of privilege. So what? Japanese privilege is very much a thing in Japan. Ask the Ainu if you don't believe me. And I happen to know that the Israeli left is having a conversation about white privilege and other forms of privilege in Israel. The Israeli left is so small these days that it's not surprising you didn't notice it.

Saying 'Japan should become less Japanese to fight privilege' is the same as saying 'Sweden should become less Swedish to fight privilege'. The first is said by practically no one; the second is said all the time.

And I'm sure there are one or two Israelis who believe that, but is it a mainstream discourse? I don't recall seeing any articles in the Israeli press talking about 'Jewish privilege' and the need to fight it.

 

[Katie88]

They don't pretend to be an open culture and there are not a ton of non-Japanese in the country by design.

Or, to put it another way, they prefer to keep their homeland for their own people. Funnily enough, most Europeans are also deeply opposed to mass immigration, yet their wishes are not respected, and, to add insult to injury, they are told that their homelands and societies must change to accommodate others through discourses like 'white privilege'.

 

[Lexicus]

Because it's an unsupported assertion

What would constitute "support" for that assertion?

So the whole 'privilege' discourse is for white countries and only white countries. Your anti-white bigotry is showing I'm afraid.

Yes, the 'white privilege' discourse is only relevant to white supremacy ("white country" is just another freudian slip revealing your racist views).

Try reading my post to see where.

No, I'm asking where I admitted race and ethnicity are the same thing, the way you said I did. How would I find that out by reading your post?