The next beta- changelog

[Gokudo01]

My reply is to both you and Enrico, since your commentary is similar (and appreciated). As an aside, I never take criticism of mod changes personally. Why would I? I only take it personally if someone makes it personal, which is silly.

In any case, yeah, Autocracy is nerfed in this outline (code hasn't been written yet, this is just a draft). Why? Because war is a zero-sum game, and tenets that make late-game war virtually trivial for the player take away any amount of challenge. If the game, up to ideologies, requires hard choices and decisions, and suddenly you can just say 'screw it,' grab autocracy + lightning warfare + any other tenet and steamroll your neighbors (ignoring diplo penalties, etc)...that kinda defeats the point of turns 0-300 no, right?

Autarky is tough. I don't love my rewrite, but I also find that yet more base yields to cities is a really boring solution. A buff to international and internal trade routes at least generates player choices and can be used in interesting ways.

United Front and Gunboat are buffed versions of their former selves. And yes, the 'increase influence from bullying' is a bear, as I'd have to teach the AI. Happy to consider other solutions, but AI work takes a lot of time.

G

I understand that design choice or point but I feel like you don't tackle the issue where it matters. If I don't have fighting bonus i want bonus to science/production/etc...
I've got some proposition which could bring some idea on the table.

1 - futurism : I think the +1 culture from gw are meanless at the point, either it should be a lot greater or it should be something else. I think a idea could be to give historical event when you finish research a technology.
A big bonus to GW/GA/GM generation could be nice too. after all, "futurism was an Italian artistic and social movement. It emphasized speed, technology, youth, and violence, and objects such as the car, the aeroplane, and the industrial city"
2 - Lightning Warfare : I'm not against putting it T3 but changing free airport to +x production bonus will have a major drawback: you will have to research the technology in order to use it.

3 - some brainstorming :

• Wide empire suffers a lot from inflation. Having a tenet which drastically reduces inflation would be a nice addition. you don't need more gold if your gold are more efficient
  
• A good idea would be to reduce the science penalty from the number of cities. Orders gets free buildings, lots of productions and cheap investment, freedom gets cheap specialist and Megacities so it would be make autocracy more efficient without taking identity from other ideology.
• Bonus production towards buildings which have been built in the Capital which should help with infrastructure ( one of the biggest weakness ) without having to add yield per city everywhere and taking a part of order's soul. Bring back the capital yield bonus
  
• unique improvement which would allow a nice synergy
• keep all building on conquest ( YES let's take everything from Rome and give it something else ^^ )
  
• Improving village, because why not, there is no tenet about village

 

[Gazebo]

Actually I like yields and the more the better. It's not the case with vassals though because benefit from them yield-wise isn't really that big, especially once you get really big. 50% more is close to nothing. Pretty much only absolutely obliterated civs can be vassalised and their input has no real value in the large scale of your Autocratic, 30-50 city empire because I assume you have at least as many on std map if you've managed to make lots of vassals. It's a drop in the ocean that has no impact whatsoever, I've had three vassals in one game and never noticed a noticeable change when taking any of them. 50% more can just as well not exist, it's too late for pennies to be a major selling point of a policy. For me they only matter for potential votes in world congress as you trade or demand so they vote your way. More CS yields idea would be sweet, maybe, but in Freedom. For Autarky it's as always bonuses that will only matter for tall players on a tree which forces and expects you to go wide which is why it can't work unless it becomes ludicrous.

I'll explain further. That after picking the Iron Fist Vatican City suddenly gives you 10 Faith more doesn't matter at all when you have 50 cities. It's 0.2 per city, that's nothing and even the worst ancient era policies'd laugh that sort of thing out of the room. I was even being generous because I don't think Faith CS ever give 20 per turn anyway. Same problem with Cultural, Militaristic, etc. If you made the +50% also impact Scrivener/Chancery/Wire Service/etc yields for every CS thing (with 0.5 being existent and stacking, so 2 x 1 x 0.5 = 1, because I know how unfavourably the game rounds values), that'd matter more for Autocracy. It'd likely be a C/C- on a normal map, but not an easy F. As it is, I can't see myself picking that.



Well, I did post some in the Autocracy thread. Prora and SoL could have their benefits switched which'd be the simplest, but that'd leave Freedom-goers unhappy with a bad wonder. Maybe

Prora - happiness effects stay. Prora gains +1 of all yields for every city you control. - still weaker than SoL (that is giving you at least 5-8 production per city, way more in capital and best cities), but it'd be decent at turning one city really good. Or some other solution, like also add +yields on top of happiness for every 2 policies.

Hall of Honour - same as now I guess, but also -25% Faith cost purchase in the city. Can purchase all kinds of military with Faith in the city. OR replace Faith with some other yield that's not outdated OR add some way to spend and gain Faith in Autocracy.

Hall of Honor doesn't have faith. 25% production, 15 tourism, 2 paper, votes per conquered capital. Seems fine compared to others.

G

 

[Gazebo]

Alright, poured over my notes, the SQL database, and the DLL, and here's what I've got. I like it, personally. Does it address every complaint ever in a perfect way? Nah. Is it an improvement over v1? I'd say so. Added my thoughts too.

• Iron Fist (replaces Autarky) - Vassals can no longer rebel or be liberated. Yields from Vassals and City-States increased by 100%, and +50% Worker Improvement rate.
  • Note that part of this bonus relies on C4DF. If you don't use C4DF, only 1/2 of this tenet applies. Eh, most users use it anyways...
  • The idea here is that you take this if you have strong vassals, there's WC pressure against your vassals, or you've got a lot of CS allies.
• Lightning Warfare - +3 Movement for Great Generals. Gun units gain +15% attack and ignore enemy ZOC. Armor units gain +15% attack and +1 Movement.
  • A nerf to tanks, but tanks are already so good...
• New World Order - +100% construction speed for Constab/Police Station
  • Buffed to make these buildings virtually instant. Synergy with Police State and counters Order/Freedom spy buffs.
• Third Alternative - dropped capital yields, now also Reduces Unit Gold Maintenance costs by 25%.
  • Passive, yet can theoretically give you multiple combat bonuses via strategic monopolies. Synergizes with Gunboat Diplomacy.
• Gunboat Diplomacy (was Nationalism). +5 Production/Science from Harbors/Seaports/Lighthouses, +50% Production of Naval Units. Gain 1 Oil and Coal for every City-State Alliance.
  • Strong coastal tenet, with a powerful CS effect. Can lead to major surpluses of two very useful strategic resources.
• Cult of Personality (edited) - highest warscore now affects all Civilizations (50% of highest warscore counts as tourism mod with all civs)
  • A straight up buff. Synergizes with Total War quite well.
• Futurism (added) - +2 Culture from Great Works, 150 Tourism (scaling with era) when you conquer a city for the first time.
  • Nice accelerator for culture victory if you go conquering.
• Total War (new) - +25% Production when building land units. +25% Warscore (from city capture, plunder, etc.). 50% easier to bully City-States.
  • Higher warscore is great. Wears the enemy out quickly, gets you tourism from futurism, etc. The bully stuff makes this easier if you take Tyranny.
• United Front - Unit gifts to City-States generate 40 Influence. While at war, influence with allied City-States does not decay, and Militaristic City-State unit gift rate triples.
  • Buff your CS allies with units, no influence decay during war saves you hundreds of influence globally, and CSs pay it back with more units. Nice internal synergy here.
• Tyranny (was Gunboat Diplomacy) - Can bully allied City-States, and doing so decreases the influence of all other Civs with that CS by 25% and increases yours by 25%.
  • Tear down the influence of other civs through bullying, and increase yours. You need a base of influence to work with to really benefit (25% of 0 is 0). Can really dent the 1000+ influence of some civs late-game.

Edit: also, Prora:

• Prora: Gain 10 Culture from pillaging, scaling with era.

 

[ashendashin]

More buffs huh? Gotta say it does look really good at projecting power, if missing a little flavor (or maybe I'll have a great time patrolling the seas and shooting down anyone messing with my favorite pummeled-states). A solid tree for sure. I just hoped for some further attention to how resistant people were to messing with LW. It seems like the issue with tanks vs everything else should be looked into some more, but I guess that's not really something that only Autocracy should deal with.

 

[Gazebo]

More buffs huh? Gotta say it does look really good at projecting power, if missing a little flavor (or maybe I'll have a great time patrolling the seas and shooting down anyone messing with my favorite pummeled-states). A solid tree for sure. I just hoped for some further attention to how resistant people were to messing with LW. It seems like the issue with tanks vs everything else should be looked into some more, but I guess that's not really something that only Autocracy should deal with.

Buffs, yes, but situational buffs. There are very few passive yields in autocracy, and that's by design - the ideology is about capitalizing on military power, not building a wide 'builder' empire. Freedom leans towards the tall, specialist cities; Order the wide, production-heavy generic cities (conquered or not); Autocracy the conquering snowball with CS friends. Autocracy will never win the 'builder' game - if you aren't at war or bullying CSs, you misunderstand fascism autocracy.

G

 

[ashendashin]

Autocracy will never win the 'builder' game - if you aren't at war or bullying CSs, you misunderstand fascism autocracy.

I hope that's not aimed at me! Everything I've suggested was with the idea of forcing war through your own interests or stepping on enough toes to do so (taking CS resources, blockading cities on land, occupation of lesser civs tiles). Though I did like tu-79's view of being so massive through war that Autocracy should have something to push to the end properly (I didn't consider CS influence until you pushed it as the focus). So I just went along the idea of directly doing so with units instead of empire-wide projection.

 

[Txurce]

Buffs, yes, but situational buffs. There are very few passive yields in autocracy, and that's by design - the ideology is about capitalizing on military power, not building a wide 'builder' empire. Freedom leans towards the tall, specialist cities; Order the wide, production-heavy generic cities (conquered or not); Autocracy the conquering snowball with CS friends. Autocracy will never win the 'builder' game - if you aren't at war or bullying CSs, you misunderstand fascism autocracy.

G

The linkages in particular look like fun, which is a term I've never used when referring to Autocracy.

 

[CrazyG]

The city state interaction side is actually developed to be a serious strategy. The only way to have variety in military tenets is for some of them to be situational, and I think you did a good job.

I really agree that Autocracy isn't about city yields, its about projecting power. The only immediate change I'll suggest would personally like to see the yields on gunboat diplomacy be something else. Maybe directly buffing the power of some naval units? I'm in favor of the name being something like Unrestricted Submarine Warfare or Mare Nostrum

 

[Gazebo]

I hope that's not aimed at me! Everything I've suggested was with the idea of forcing war through your own interests or stepping on enough toes to do so (taking CS resources, blockading cities on land, occupation of lesser civs tiles). Though I did like tu-79's view of being so massive through war that Autocracy should have something to push to the end properly (I didn't consider CS influence until you pushed it as the focus). So I just went along the idea of directly doing so with units instead of empire-wide projection.

Nope, you = 'generic' you.

The city state interaction side is actually developed to be a serious strategy. The only way to have variety in military tenets is for some of them to be situational, and I think you did a good job.

I really agree that Autocracy isn't about city yields, its about projecting power. The only immediate change I'll suggest would personally like to see the yields on gunboat diplomacy be something else. Maybe directly buffing the power of some naval units? I'm in favor of the name being something like Unrestricted Submarine Warfare or Mare Nostrum

The building yields? USW is interesting as a name - we could give subs wolfpack 1 to start instead of the % bonus. Mare Nostrum, though accurate, is a medieval/renaissance term, a little strange IMO.

G

 

[CrazyG]

The building yields? USW is interesting as a name - we could give subs wolfpack 1 to start instead of the % bonus. Mare Nostrum, though accurate, is a medieval/renaissance term, a little strange IMO.

"Gunboat Diplomacy (was Nationalism). +5 Production/Science from Harbors/Seaports/Lighthouses, +50% Production of Naval Units. Gain 1 Oil and Coal for every City-State Alliance."

I'm not a fan of the bonuses to lighthouses. I like USW as a name, I love when a game ends up being playing out with a historical accuracy, like Freedom barely holding on with "Their Finest Hour". Gunboat Diplomacy is a term that came around long before ideologies.

I'd change lightning warfare to blitzkrieg too, if I had it my way. If you do go USW, could you give subs a promotion that grants yields for kills?

 

[Gazebo]

"Gunboat Diplomacy (was Nationalism). +5 Production/Science from Harbors/Seaports/Lighthouses, +50% Production of Naval Units. Gain 1 Oil and Coal for every City-State Alliance."

I'm not a fan of the bonuses to lighthouses. I like USW as a name, I love when a game ends up being playing out with a historical accuracy, like Freedom barely holding on with "Their Finest Hour". Gunboat Diplomacy is a term that came around long before ideologies.

I'd change lightning warfare to blitzkrieg too, if I had it my way. If you do go USW, could you give subs a promotion that grants yields for kills?

I do like USW. It was my first choice. I'm a little worried it is too 'specific' of a tenet, theme-wise. I'll tinker with it.

G

 

[ashendashin]

I do like USW. It was my first choice. I'm a little worried it is too 'specific' of a tenet, theme-wise. I'll tinker with it.

G

Naw it'd be perfect. Gotta get with the times and understand it's nuclear sub diplomacy. Try ganging up on me now, Ethiopia and friends! Subs will be the new CS defense! The bastards will never see it coming, just as I never see their coalition prep.

 

[Gazebo]

USW is too long for the policy boxes unfortunately. Here's my take on the policy:

Commerce Raiders (was Nationalism). +10% Production from Seaports. +1 Oil and Coal for every City-State Alliance. Submarines and Melee Naval Units gain the Prize Rules Promotion.

Prize Rules: gold from kills (150% of CS), 5 XP from pillaging tiles.

G

 

[ashendashin]

+10% Production from Seaports.
G

I love it. Germany with double production is coming closer to reality.

 

[Txurce]

USW is too long for the policy boxes unfortunately. Here's my take on the policy:

Prize Rules: gold from kills (150% of CS), 5 XP from pillaging tiles.

G

Prize kills fits USW, but I miss the 50% production on units in terms of projecting power. Of course I'm looking at this in a niche scenario: I'm going for a DV, but there are enough super-aggressors in the game that I know my best chance for simple survival is to go with Autocracy instead of order or Freedom. I wouldn't have the infrastructure to spit out ships at the needed rate, so the old version looked really good. But maybe if subs were cheaper as well, it would work for me as well as for CrazyG.

 

[Gazebo]

Prize kills fits USW, but I miss the 50% production on units in terms of projecting power. Of course I'm looking at this in a niche scenario: I'm going for a DV, but there are enough super-aggressors in the game that I know my best chance for simple survival is to go with Autocracy instead of order or Freedom. I wouldn't have the infrastructure to spit out ships at the needed rate, so the old version looked really good. But maybe if subs were cheaper as well, it would work for me as well as for CrazyG.

Well, 10% on seaports is an 'always on' bonus that will eclipse 50% for naval construction in most scenarios. You've likely gone imperialism to get to autocracy, so your ocean tiles are already steroids.

G

 

[zeofig]

For what it's worth, I would really love progress to get the capital bonus retroactively. Right now, I feel like I have to reroll starts until I get a good production-heavy tile, then stay at pop 1 until I get my first policy, and restart if I don't get a culture hut. If you get all those things, progress can open pretty fast. Otherwise, it's way slower. I think the simplest way to prevent e.g. tradition taking the progress opener later for a big boost would be to just prevent the bonus from scaling with era, although there are many other equally trivial ways to fix that.

I also think the plantation thing is worth changing, because it feels really bad if you chop down a single forest in order to build a plantation, then realise you can no longer make a herbalist. It's a really small issue, though.

I'd also like to say that I quite enjoy not being able to get open borders easily. It makes things more difficult and strategic, makes the mid/late game a bit more focused, and makes Summer Palace really worthwhile. It would be cool to have some other way to alleviate it, though.

 

[ElliotS]

Well, 10% on seaports is an 'always on' bonus that will eclipse 50% for naval construction in most scenarios. You've likely gone imperialism to get to autocracy, so your ocean tiles are already steroids.

G

I actually go Rationalism into Autocracy about as often as Imperialism, though much of that was when Rationalism had the monopoly bonus.

Also I'm really liking the rework. I'd like to see Gun units still get +1 movement as well on Lightning Warfare though.

 

[Phalanx BR]

Just a reminder, the Musketeer and the Hussar use Lightning Warfare as a promotion. If you change the tenet be sure to create a new promotion for them.

 

[tu_79]

Alright, poured over my notes, the SQL database, and the DLL, and here's what I've got. I like it, personally. Does it address every complaint ever in a perfect way? Nah. Is it an improvement over v1? I'd say so. Added my thoughts too.

Now Autocracy is interesting for diplomatic civs, too. That's a gunboat diplomacy, but who minds. I can see a pacifist Siam taking Autocracy.