The next few turns...

[Chamnix]

Science Rate Lowered 10% - no Extra Delay in Researching Mysticism.

We are set at 80% science, 10% Luxury, and 10% Economy – for a Net gain of 3 gold per turn.
(KISS income of 1 gold per turn)

Research: Continued work on Mysticism. Est time: 4 turns
* Population drop in Black Hole stunted Mysticism research at 4 turns even at 90%

Citizens are working these tiles:
Athens: R. I. Cow / R. I. Wheat / M. R. Bonus Grassland
Black Hole: Wheat
Heron: R. M. Bonus Grassland

Please do not be in a hurry to reduce the science slider in the future. Both Athens and The Black Hole will grow this turn and be able to produce more income next turn, and it is possible that next turn Mysticism would have dropped back to 2 turns to go.

Unless otherwise instructed…
I plan to keep all cities building and working tiles as they currently are.

The Black Hole will grow, and the new citizen will probably be assigned to the forest – he should be moved to the BG (work wheat and BG).

Athens I will have to get back to you on – it will be easy to build the granary in 3 so it is a question of maximizing gold and minimizing overrun on Mysticism. I will have to look at the save.

Domestic Ministry:
Worker - Jarom uncovered a plain grassland under the Athens forest. What next?

I guess road the tile he is on – there is certainly no point in mining it, and I just hate moving a worker without putting a road down.

 

[General_W]

it is possible that next turn Mysticism would have dropped back to 2 turns to go.

I considered this possibility… after I had finished the save.
For future reference, I'll leave the slider alone until we get down to the last turn on research. With a little luck, it won't matter this time.

Looking forward to seeing your analysis on Athens workers – I won't even bother trying if you're going to do it!

 

[Chamnix]

We have six workers:
Worker - Jarom: Roading B-grassland (ETC: 2 turns)
Worker – Rambuchan: Irrigating Elephant S. of Athens (ETC: 3 turns)
Worker – Imnzerg: done Irrigating Wheat by Black Hole. (can move next turn)
Worker – M4 Sherman: Mining BG North of Heron. (ETC: 2 turns)
Worker – Rujikin: Mining BG south of Black Hole (ETC: next turn)
Worker – General W: Moved South to Athens Cow
Yay! General W is now a worker! (moving up the citizen list)
Chamix’s suggestion was non-descript, so I took matters into my own hands on this one. I intend General W to help complete the Mine by Heron 1 turn faster (in PBEM, worker turns are never wasted). Then they can work together to road and mine the BG that Athens is using. At least that’s the plan for now. Up for discussion in the Domestic thread.

Sorry about my sloppiness with the worker move suggestions. I have to admit, I have been thinking more in terms of improving tiles we will need eventually and making sure we have sufficient workers near the goody huts at turn 53 instead of thinking about what we need immediately. Getting the mine by Heron done more quickly is definitely a worthwhile task. Besides, now Worker General_W can arrive at an almost completed project, do a little work, and have a great photo op as befits a President.

Here is what I picture our workers doing for the next 10 turns. It is still sloppy and more concerned with getting our workers in position in 10 turns, but it can serve as a base template. I’m sure there are lots of improvements to this schedule available, but we have to be careful to be able to get our workers into position, or those thugs in the Defense Ministry will accuse Domestic of failing in our half of the bargain.

Jarom – Road and mine where he is, then go W-W and irrigate the flood plains while the hut is popped, then return to improve yellow dot.

Rambuchan – After irrigating where he is, go 3 NW to the flood plains to road and irrigate while the hut is popped.

Imnzerg – NW to road and mine to connect and improve Virtuoso.

M4 Sherman and General_W – finish the mine by Heron, go E-SE together and irrigate the plains south of Athens. After that, one goes to the BG N-NW of Heron to road, the other to the BG N-NE of Heron to road. Once both are roaded then they combine to mine first one, then the other.

These 2 are the weakest part of my schedule. I know we want the BG N-NE of Heron improved (Athens actually won’t be using that tile once the ivory is irrigated, but Heron will), but that is a tile we need someone on when we pop the hut. We will need those plains irrigated as Heron grows, but we certainly don’t need them right away. I also think it is better to separate them when they move onto unroaded tiles. I am really not sure about the overall plan with these 2.

New worker from The Black Hole (due in 5) – S to road and irrigate the flood plains while the hut is popped.

New worker from Virtuoso (due in 7) – either SE-SE-SE to road and irrigate the flood plains or S to road and mine to improve Virtuoso.

I’m sure there is plenty of room for improvement, but I am too tired to find it right now.

Build orders needed for:
Heron

I think we should go back to the granary we had previously planned. If the team thinks a second military factory is necessary, then we could build a barracks, but I definitely don’t see any need for more regular warriors.

Battle Plans needed for:
Ligurian Reapers
Ares Warrior Heron

Name needed for:
Ares Warrior – ToBeAnnounced in Athens. Also – should he stay on MP duty?

I don’t know if PG will be back in time for next turn so we may have to make a decision without him. My opinion is to flee the barbarians with Ligurian Reapers. I would prefer to keep uncovering new tiles with him instead of risking losing him – those barbarians are no threat to our civilians.

I would keep the MP in Athens there, and I would also move the new warrior from Heron to Athens. With 2 MP there, we can move luxuries back to 10% next turn.

 

[fe3333au]

Nice picture Chamnix ... excellent

 

[Chamnix]

Thanks - but how do I get pictures so that they "fit" and don't make the text harder to read?

 

[Meleager]

You need to resize them. It can be done in paint but thats a bit of a hack. The best way would be to use another program.

However, if you only have paint, you should be able to resize them directly after you paste them (you know the box that comes up, just stretch that around abit) and then pull the corner of the "base" (can't remember the proper word) back.

I hope that makes sence.

Another hack would be to switch to 800 * 600 resoultion before you take the screenshot and then change back afterwards.

 

[fe3333au]

Another option is to create a frame ... copy and paste that into a new picture ... you get rid of the extraneous stuff you do not require ...

Or you could zoom out and then frame if you wanted the whole map ...

 

[General_W]

Chamnix – really like the plans you laid out.

I know you said you thought this part was the sloppiest…

M4 Sherman and General_W – finish the mine by Heron, go E-SE together and irrigate the plains south of Athens. After that, one goes to the BG N-NW of Heron to road, the other to the BG N-NE of Heron to road. Once both are roaded then they combine to mine first one, then the other.

But I really like this plan.

Have you read this?
Worker Moves by KayEss


you totally followed the strategy laid out here – which I’ve found to be VERY effective. For anyone wondering about it – it’s a worthwhile read on using workers in multiplayer (and single player!)

Anyway – just wanted to express my support for this schedule.

 

[Chamnix]

Thanks for the link (and the kind words!). I had read that article a long time ago, but at the time I was only playing single-player and pretty much ignored the differences in multi-player. It was definitely worth rereading - now I finally understand what you meant when you kept saying worker turns aren't wasted in multi-player!

Anyway, I am still not completely thrilled with what those workers are doing - they are not wasting worker turns long-term, but they are improving the wrong tiles first in order to end on the BG near the goody hut at the right time. I think it would be better if we could improve that tile now, and on turn 53, have a worker able to move to that tile, wait while the goody hut is popped, then continue moving to his next project.

Maybe I will look at it again later with the new understanding - I am too used to not adding workers to projects with an odd number of turns to go.

 

[Chamnix]

Being bored while waiting for the Donuts to take their turn, I tried laying out the worker moves until the hut is popped.

Turn 45 –

Imnzerg – move NW to BG SE of Virtuoso
Rujikin – move SW to FP S of TBH
General_W – SW-W and mine BG N of Heron

Turn 46 –

Imnzerg – road BG SE of Virtuoso
Rujikin – road FP S of TBH
M4 Sherman – move NE to BG shared by Athens and Heron
General_W – E-SE and irrigate plains NE-E of Heron

Turn 47 –

Jarom – mine BG SE of the new yellow dot
M4 Sherman – road BG shared by Athens and Heron

Turn 48 –

Rambuchan – W and irrigate plains NE-E of Heron (help General_W)

Turn 49 –

TBH Worker – move SW to FP SW of TBH
Rambuchan – move NW-W-NW to BG near red dot
General_W – move NW-N to FP NW-NW of Athens
Imnzerg – mine BG SE of Virtuoso
Rujikin – move E to forest near yellow dot

Turn 50 –

M4 Sherman – mine BG shared by Athens and Heron
TBH Worker – road FP SW of TBH
Rambuchan – road BG near red dot
General_W – road FP NW-NW of Athens
Rujikin – chop forest near yellow dot

Turn 51 –

Virtuoso Worker – SE and mine BG near Virtuoso (help Imnzerg)

Turn 52 –

Turn 53 –

Imnzerg – move SW to BG S of Virtuoso
Virtuoso Worker – SE-SE and irrigate FP SW of TBH.
General _W – wait until hut is popped, then go SW to BG shared by Athens and Heron and mine (helps M4 Sherman)
Rambuchan – E and mine BG shared by Athens and Heron (help M4 Sherman and General_W)
TBH worker – irrigate FP SW of TBH (help Virtuoso worker).
Jarom – W-W and irrigate FP S-SE of TBH.

This approach gets the critical BG between Heron and Athens roaded 3 turns earlier and mined 1 turn earlier than my previous approach. It is later irrigating the plains SW of Athens, but that tile wasn’t as important anyway (it would have been irrigated too late for Heron to work the turn it grows to size 2 regardless). It still leaves 4 workers on the tiles near the hut at popping time, but it will be a different 4 tiles than previously planned (the only change is which flood plain tile near TBH will be occupied – it shouldn’t require any change in Defense’s plans).

It is kind of confusing keeping track of all these workers, what tiles have roads, and how many turns each task has to go, but hopefully any errors I made will be discovered before they are harmful.

 

[peter grimes]

@Chamnix re resizing...

I've found that a width of 200 to 250 pixels works well for me. I don't know if my images work well on everyone else's screens, but they are fine on mine. I also try to compress the jpegs to less than 100k.

I don't know a quick and easy way to do that in paint. I have 'edu' photoshop at work and at home, and I use the 'save for web' function. Makes all that really quick.

@Everyone: I read KayEss's article, but I couldn't find the one by Cracker that KayEss says is seminal! Anyone know where to find it?

 

[General_W]

I believe KayEss is refering to this here:
Cracker's Stuff

But I thought KayEss was more a lot more to the point. there's a ton of good stuff at that link though!
Happy reading!

 

[fe3333au]

Noticed that KISS warrior heading down western coast we need to secure our goody hut interests with a city maybe ... or a guard ???

 

[Chamnix]

We have Seven workers:
Worker - Jarom: Mining B-grass (ETC: 4)
Worker – Rambuchan: Mining BG near red dot (ETC: 2)
Worker – General W: Mining BG near red dot (ETC: 2)
Worker – Imnzerg: Mining S of Virtuoso. (ETC: 5)
Worker – M4 Sherman: Same tile as GW & Rambuchan. (Move Next)
Worker – Rujikin: Moved to Forest (Move Next)
Worker – Chamnix: On Floodplains SW of Black Hole (Move Next)

Looks from the picture that Chamnix may have disobeyed orders and gone to the floodplains S of the The Black Hole instead of SW. That guy has always had a problem with authority figures :shakehead

Please check my understanding of multiplayer workers:

On this turn, General_W and Rambuchan started mining the tile that M4 Sherman is on. If M4 Sherman is told to mine next turn, the mine still won't be completed on turn 50, but on turn 51 it will be completed, and 2 workers will be able to move on turn 51. The third will be able to move on turn 52.

Alternatively, M4 Sherman can move away on turn 50. The mine will be completed on turn 51, but neither worker will be able to move that turn, right?

And if someone can figure out why my corruption calcs are sometimes off, I would really appreciate it. Here is alexman's corruption article. I think d=3.5 (truncated to 3), da=4.5, Maxd=40 so distance corruption is 0.1125. OCN=17, L=80, so Nopt=17. Our new town should be rank 2 (Heron = rank 1), so rank corruption=0.0588. I think it should be 17% corrupt, so the third shield should be lost.

It is great that we can get that third shield, but it is frustrating for someone as compulsive as I am not to be able to apply a formula and get the right answer. Out of curiosity, what does Civ Assist II say the corruption % is there?

 

[General_W]

On this turn, General_W and Rambuchan started mining the tile that M4 Sherman is on. If M4 Sherman is told to mine next turn, the mine still won't be completed on turn 50,

This is correct. The mine still won't be completed till turn 51 - but on that turn, 2 workers will be able to move - only one will need to wait till turn 52 to move.

Alternatively, M4 Sherman can move away on turn 50. The mine will be completed on turn 51, but neither worker will be able to move that turn, right?

I believe this is exactly right.

EDIT: That Chamnix guy! First thing he does is his own thing!
P.S. oops.

 

[General_W]

And if someone can figure out why my corruption calcs are sometimes off, I would really appreciate it.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with this - but forgive me a stupid question - are you allowing for our commercial trait? I know it was made more potent for C3C than it was in vanilla.

 

[Chamnix]

I am using the commercial trait to the extent I know how - from alexman's formulas, the only place I saw it was to calculate the Nopt, and I used it there.

 

[Chamnix]

I think I have a new worker plan based on my miscalculated corruption in Delphi TBA (I hope I don't have to type that name too many times...:shakehead) and reflecting the changes General_W already made on turn 49 to take advantage of the multiplayer rules. I'll post the details after I get them cleaned up a bit (besides this post is going to be long enough already...), but I want to make sure people are OK with the concept and the trade-offs I am making:

First, I am really emphasizing Delphi TBA since that is intended to be our second settler factory, and IMO our 3 greatest needs right now are settlers, settlers, and more settlers. I have the granary being built on turn 60 just before growth to size 3 with a triple forest chop. Obviously, one tradeoff is that the workers chopping and improving this area are neglecting the other towns, but it is hard to quantify this. Delphi TBA will not be able to be a 4-turn settler factory immediately because it will need to grow, but we can either build warriors waiting for growth or slower settlers as we grow (either warriors on 62 and 64, then settlers on 68, 72, 76, 80 + every 4 turns, or settlers on 66, 71, 76, 80 + every 4 turns - we have plenty of time to decide which). Alternatively, we might be able to add 2 workers and produce settlers on 64, 68, 72, 76, 80 + every 4 turns, but I am not sure I like that idea. We also have plenty of time to discuss that option.

Another consequence of this is that Athens will only produce 1 more warrior. Since Delphi TBA will need the wheat, once the second factory is running, Athens can only be a 4-turn settler factory and not a settler + warrior factory. Getting Delphi TBA running earlier means turning the warrior pump off sooner as well.

Additionally, although 4 workers will still be surrounding the hut under my revised plan, the workers will not be on the tiles I originally expected when planning the hut-popping with Defense. The only tiles Warrior Heron will be able to reach will all be covered by workers. We can still surround the huts because we have Athens I, Athens II, and Antipater available, plus we will have a new warrior produced in Athens on Turn 51, but it means Athens will be completely without MP for a couple turns. A positive consequence is that Heron is freed to either go barb hunting or exploring instead of returning home.

Finally, building many settlers and few new warriors and not devoting as many early worker turns to improving red dot means our escort production may have a difficult time keeping up with our settler production. Since all settlers must be escorted at this point, our homeland defense will be stretched thin, and we may not be able to maintain as many MPs as we would like.

Does anyone think I have the wrong priorities or that the consequences are too severe before I work out the remaining details?

 

[peter grimes]

quick thoughts, and I'm not looking at a map right now:

If Heron can't make it to one of the Hut squares, he should certainly be able to make it back to Athens to cover MP duty, thereby releasing both Athens and AthensII a turn earlier (since the settler is produced, only one MP is required).

As for losing the 'Guaranteed Warrior Escort' from the Athens settler/warrior factory, we can afford it. We have many warriors now, and we're about to launch a military town. The warriors in hand can explore as well as escort. We just have to be smart about not losing the warriors in barb raids. And, not all settlers will have to be escorted: just those wandering into the jungly wastes, and other areas not regularly patrolled.

As for my thoughts about priorities: We Must Expand! Expansion priorities trump all else. Those who disagree must argue most persuasively, for it is self-evident.

 

[Chamnix]

Good point - I did not think about moving Heron back to Athens for MP. However, I am not sure it is worth it. Immediately after the hut is popped, we will have plenty of warriors in the are for MP, and some will be sent back out to explore. As long as Heron is not necessary to pop, and since he is already some tiles from the homeland, it may be better just to send him out exploring and spend the luxury money for 1-2 turns instead of wasting time moving him back and forth.