The Next World SuperPower

[homer]

Personally... I think we should all meet on some tropical island and form our own country... I will stand up and be the supreme dictator for life.. and we could call ourselves HOmer's Republic of New Yuppies (or HORNY)..

Then we can start a thread on this thing debating when WE will be the next super power.

I think my first appointment will be Fayedi as the Minister of Propaganda...

 

[Acid Reign]

Originally posted by knowltok
Respectfully Acid, one does not let nations become super powers. China will or will not be a superpower based upon its economic, military, and technical prowess. Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany were both Superpowers that had attrocious human rights records.

But in modern day world, if a country gets too powerfull and its human rights are too bad, other countries will just stop trading with it.

 

[knowltok]

Good points Homer. I am sure china would collect in the same way we do if they could. Of course this point will be lost on us when someone actually starts doing it. Someday China or someone else will fly a plane 12 miles off our coast and it will shock the American people and piss them off. It shouldn't but it will.

 

[knowltok]

Thing is, we haven't stopped trading with them yet. As long as they don't go off of the deep end on human rights with another cultural revolution or something, the world will keep trading with the 1.? Billion people in China, because the cost of not trading will be too high.

 

[homer]

I dont think it will piss us off... remember the Russians were doing it for years with their long range bombers equipped with collection equipment. The difference was that both us and the Russians were both very careful to avoid incidents like the one that happened with the Chinese.. and when they did happen.. both govts did everything they could to keep the incidents quiet.. the stakes were waayyy too high.

It was only when one of us were "caught" like Powers in his U2, that the publicity card was played... if something happened in international waters or airspace.. usually it didnt become public knowledge.

 

[vonork]

The definition that just because you are flying on international waters and listening your not spying I find that kind of hypocritical.

So if I stand on the public street outside your house and look through your window I'm not spying at you? If I'm using a satellite and taking photos of you I'm not spying?

Any kind of information gathering that you not want me to obtain I have to gather by spying on you.

Or am I wrong?

 

[homer]

if Im standing on a public street, not on your property, looking into your window, no.. its not spying.. its not very polite, but if you call the cops on me... there is not a thing they can do except tell you to close your window.

What country "owns" space? No.. I dont consider taking pictures from international space (air, water, or space) is spying.. it is called collection and there is a big difference.

I think this is just semantics though... spying implies that you are somewhere where you shouldnt be collecting information.

In space and international waters every country has the right to go to space and international waters.. and there is nothing that anyone can do about it..

We in the US couldnt do anything about the Soviet "fishing trawlers" with the big antennas that used to sit off our coast during the cold war (and probably still do)...

Of course we didnt like it... but we had no legal or moral right to tell the Soviets they couldnt sit in international waters and do that...

Now the difference is when thge Soviets used to send their submarines into other countries "national" waters to collect information (we did it too).. this is what I would consider spying and if you catch another country in your country's borders.. then you have every right to claim they were spying and denounce them and their children.. and this has happened on occasion.. i.e. Powers and the U2, and I think in the 80s a Soviet sub ran aground in either Norweigian or Swedish territorial waters while snooping around...

And thats my point... see the difference?

 

[vonork]

But it is as you said semantics and by that I think it is kind of false to say that it’s not spying.

“No I did not spy on you I just ascendancy heard what you said. Now if you don’t want me to hear what you say you better speak quiet, speak in code, use 512 encrypted messages just encase I happens to hacks your e-mail when I’m sit by my computer…”

 

[homer]

I think you got it right in your quote! Im glad I could convince you of your errant views...

"the question is not are you paranoid... but are you paranoid enough?"

And with that thought I'll end my part of the discussion on this thread.. whether or not you argree with me.. I hope Ive given some people some food for thought on the topic of spying.. what it is and what it isnt..

Cheers!

- Homer

 

[knowltok]

The cold reality of it is that a nation that burries its head in the sand and pays no attention to its neighbors is running a grave risk. Intelligence gathering is a means of keeping the other guy honest. It makes sure they aren't breaking test-ban treaties and territorial agreements. It lets you know if they have put their military on high alert and if they are massing at your border. The world has developed rules about how it should, and should not be conducted. To arbitrarily decide to obey a stricter set of rules is to put your nation at risk.

Keep in mind what might have happened if the US hadn't detected the missles that the Soviet Union was placing in Cuba before they were fully operational? Potentially, the Soviets might have thought that they could win a Nuclear exchange because of the lack of warning. Right or wrong the consequences would have been catastrophic. This is by no means a certainty, and there are probably those who would say that the peace-loving soviet people would never consider such a thing. The point is that knowing what the other guy is doing keeps him from thinking he has pulled one over on you, whether he has or not.

 

[redtom]

League is in terms of economic, influence, armed forces etc.

1. USA - Sadly first. I won't need to explain why its first.

2. China - Rising giant

3. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - Commonwealth, Empire, formal colonial super-power, industrially 3rd according to the Guardian newspaper. Holds massive influence due to commonwealth, empire, armed forces second-to-non. Reasonably well off. Nukes. Officially got the best Secret service, special forces and armed forces in the world

4. Russia - used to 2nd now 4th, due to appaling death rates, AIDS, alcoholism, the whole infrastructures is falling apart, just held by the capable President, Mr Putkin. Large pop^.

5. Germany - High GNP, just ahead industrially, population.

6. France - Nukes, superb infrastructure.

7. Japan - Would be higher except, economic collapse, neutral, no nukes.

8. India - Pop^ + Nukes, only possible future contender against China. -Ppl subject to the queen of GB

9. Pakistan - Pop^ + Nukes

10. ????, italy, mexico, one of the Scandinavian countries.


NB. This is by my reckoning, pls do not get offended, Benelux and other minor nations.

Redtom


END TRADE RESTRICTIONS AGAINST CUBA, NOW!

 

[Atros]

The US is becoming like the Roman Empire, its losing its competitiveness to countries like Japan and China, because the people in US have a higher standard of living, they are paid more, so companies prefer to invest in poorer world countries, meaning less jobs in the US.

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by redtom
League is in terms of economic, influence, armed forces etc.

1. USA - Sadly first. I won't need to explain why its first.

Especially after September 11th, I really hate hearing that bunch of anti-U.S. crap. If America is such a bad country, why in God's name are we the strongest power with the highest standard of living EVER?

 

[sonorakitch]

Redtom,

"Officially got the best Secret service, special forces and armed forces in the world"



Sorry. I had too. There is some debate which pilots are better, but by and large the U.S. armed forces is far superior, the intelligence is more widespread, and the special forces are certainly the finest trained. Of course, I am not including your Gurkahs. They are some mean and tough fighters, and we don't have a comparitive group.

Atros,

"The US is becoming like the Roman Empire, its losing its competitiveness to countries like Japan and China, because the people in US have a higher standard of living, they are paid more, so companies prefer to invest in poorer world countries, meaning less jobs in the US."

Actually, jobs haven't gone anywhere. We don't make steel anymore. We are a service economy. And our unemployment has been falling over the last decade, whereas Japan's has skyrocketed, and China has a long, long, long way to go before it could "dethrone" the US.

~Chris

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
If America is such a bad country, why in God's name are we the strongest power with the highest standard of living EVER?

Oh dear.

 

[knowltok]

The are some that would argue that standard of living thing. I personally have absolutely no problem with my level of freedoms and my standard of living, but there are studies done all the time that take into account the incedence of violent crime and what rights are permitted and not permitted. There is also the concept of how long you work and how much vacation you get. In many parts of Europe the work week is shorter than in the US and they get longer vacations. Much of this is simply a matter of perspective and or placing values on different things, but the case can be made.

You are adding fuel to the fire of those that think that all Americans are ignorant and arrogant when you state that we have the highest standard of living.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by redtom
League is in terms of economic, influence, armed forces etc.

1. USA - Sadly first. I won't need to explain why its first.

2. China - Rising giant

3. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - Commonwealth, Empire, formal colonial super-power, industrially 3rd according to the Guardian newspaper. Holds massive influence due to commonwealth, empire, armed forces second-to-non. Reasonably well off. Nukes. Officially got the best Secret service, special forces and armed forces in the world

4. Russia - used to 2nd now 4th, due to appaling death rates, AIDS, alcoholism, the whole infrastructures is falling apart, just held by the capable President, Mr Putkin. Large pop^.

5. Germany - High GNP, just ahead industrially, population.

6. France - Nukes, superb infrastructure.

7. Japan - Would be higher except, economic collapse, neutral, no nukes.

I think Japan and Germany shld be no 2 and 3. Japan got a bigger military budget than even China and despite an economic malaise lasting a decade, its economy is still hundreds of times bigger than China's. Germany got more ppl than Britain or France, esp now having being reunified and is industrially ahead. Russia also still got all those nukes so they're in a top position as well. And you're overestimating the impact of the British Commonwealth (I'm fr one member country and we don't give much thought to it) and Empire (HK's gone, what important colonies left?).

Ah, I see that you live in Britain .....

 

[knowltok]

A thing to consider in the Nukes department is not always who has them, but who could make them if they wanted to. Bothe Germany and Japan fall in this category, and there are other nations that have the technical expertise in both rocketry and nuclear reactions to build nukes. I think that this may move countries like Japan and Germany higher on your list.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by knowltok
A thing to consider in the Nukes department is not always who has them, but who could make them if they wanted to. Bothe Germany and Japan fall in this category, and there are other nations that have the technical expertise in both rocketry and nuclear reactions to build nukes. I think that this may move countries like Japan and Germany higher on your list.

Esp when both Japan and Germany have nuclear plants and produced tons of processed plutonium wastes every year. IIRC, these wastes are weopans-grade and can be used to make nukes.

 

[Acid Reign]

Just because a country has nukes, doesn't make it a super-power. Being a super power has more to do with economic strength than anything else. A country's military has some part to play, but nuclear strength has almost nothing, especially considering what would happen if any country let one off in war