The Nineteen Eighty-Four thread

This is a good question that I have heard come up before. I say there is in fact a war because it would alow them to dispose of excess production (they can't make consumer goods, and people can't be idle) as well as keep a real stressor/distraction on the people. Presumable ever soldier who goes to the front doesn't die or fight indefinetly, even in 1984 someone would eventiually make it home.

well there is clearly some form of fighting happening, as Winston is almost hit himself by a rocket bomb, but I think some susopect that it could be BB firing them theirselves at their own population, or that there may be only one government, posing as three, making three sides fight when in fact they are one. As for the disposal of production, even if there wasnt a war this stuff could be just being destroyed in the imaginary "conflict zones" without there actually being a war.


No. It was made clear they were completely devoid of power. Kept happy by enough food/booze and kept busy by war and work they have no time to organize. Not only that, but there is nothing for them to aspire to. They don't know that there could be anything better, in when newspeak takes root they won't be able to articulate such ideas anyway.

Even in the event of a famine, flood, global warming to a life threatening degree? think theyd go down quietly? Take away the bread and circuses and maybe not

Interstingly, Orwell never described actual mindreading. It was always physical observation or none telepathic pychological techniques used to control party members. I can see natural disasters temporarily causing problems. If a Katrina hit it is very likely the telescreens might not work for a few days and people really would be on their own. However, given the scale of these states and the resources at their disposal, they can easily weather the loss of any one population center if it needs to be sanitized. Just blame it on an East Asian nuke.

I know its not mindreading, thats why I said techniques, but there is obviously osme form of thought manipulation going on, where O'Brien can instantly tell when winston is trying to remember the philsophy that can resolve two contradictory and similtaneous opinions
 
Winner as reagrds point1, I habve of course read the book, but it is suspected in the book that there may in fact be no war at all, it might be an illusion, there may be only one state

I read it too and I didn't see any notion that there might actually be just one state.

In the Book, it is theorized that the elites in all three superpowers are aware of the fact that war keeps them in power and there is an unspoken agreement between them not to use nuclear weapons and not to invade "core" territories. The war is in fact desirable, that's why it never ends, only the alliances change.

Also, it is said that the regimes are afraid of people coming to contact with people from the other two countries. They could sympathize with them if they realized that they live in the same kind of misery. The only time they can briefly see them are the celebrations with public executions of prisoners.

But the Book was probably written by the party, so we can't be sure :)
 
My biggest problem with the book was the placement of the super powers. East Asia is completely unsustainable, and Oceania is absolutely hegemonic over the other two. I think it has a lot to do with when it was written, but for all three states to be maintained their core territories would have to be different.

which lends credence to the theory that there may be only one govt.
 
I read it too and I didn't see any notion that there might actually be just one state.

In the Book, it is theorized that the elites in all three superpowers are aware of the fact that war keeps them in power and there is a unspoken agreement between them not to use nuclear weapons and not to invade "core" territories. The war is in fact desirable, that's why it never ends, only the alliances change.

Also, it is said that the regimes are afraid of people coming to contact with people from the other two countries. They could sympathize with them if they realized that they live in the same kind of misery. The only time they can briefly see them are the celebrations with public executions of prisoners.

But the Book was probably written by the party, so we can't be sure :)


No I didnt mean "the Book" I meant 1984. Its a well knonw theory that there may be only one govt, pitting three sides against eachother
 
I disagree. I think if you have a pile of food with armed guards around it, and starving men, they will eventually make a run for the food


No, not if they're spirits are completely broken and they are told they must do this and that and generally stay in line to get the food.
 
No, not if they're spirits are completely broken and they are told they must do this and that and generally stay in line to get the food.


but what if they arent being told to get in line, what if they are being told you arent getting this food no matter what?
 
Here Winner, from Wikipedia:

Even Eurasia and Eastasia themselves may only be a fabrication by the government of Oceania, with Oceania the sole undisputed dominator of the world. On the other hand, Oceania might as well actually control only a rather small part of the world and still brainwash its citizens into believing that Oceania dominates the whole Earth or - as in the novel - that they are battling/allying with (a fabricated) Eurasia/Eastasia. Finally, it is possible that there is in fact only one superstate pretending to be divided into three.
 
but what if they arent being told to get in line, what if they are being told you arent getting this food no matter what?

utilise headcrabs, suppresion fields and anti-matter :)

(I'm sorry but half-life 2's city 17 was based on Big Brother and I those two are now interlined in my case :lol: )
 
well there is clearly some form of fighting happening, as Winston is almost hit himself by a rocket bomb, but I think some susopect that it could be BB firing them theirselves at their own population, or that there may be only one government, posing as three, making three sides fight when in fact they are one. As for the disposal of production, even if there wasnt a war this stuff could be just being destroyed in the imaginary "conflict zones" without there actually being a war.

If there are in fact three governments acting in concert to make sure none of them gets too much of an advangate over the other then that is in fact a defacto sort of one government.

Some think that the nature of the powers means there is a "real" war going and each side really is trying to take over the other, they just can't. I think there is a "real" war going on in that real armies are fighting each other, but the grand strategy is all orchestrated. The party officials don't care about conquest as long as they are fat and happy inside their own states. Oceania didn't so much defeat Eurasia at the end of the book so much as it was Eurasia's turn to take a fall, as choreographed by the party leaders of all three states beforehand. This is sort of implied in Goldstien's book.

Even in the event of a famine, flood, global warming to a life threatening degree? think theyd go down quietly? Take away the bread and circuses and maybe not

Given that I think the three governments are in concert enough to orchestrate the grand show that is their war, I see no reason why they don't cooperate in the repression of each others citizents. Eurasia is having a famine? Just ask your buddy East Asia to nuke a few of your cities until your supplies are sufficient. Or maybe just negotiate for a few million more casualties on the Mongolian front. Or hell, maybe just send Eurasia food, because you need them stable to continue your own war.

I know its not mindreading, thats why I said techniques, but there is obviously osme form of thought manipulation going on, where O'Brien can instantly tell when winston is trying to remember the philsophy that can resolve two contradictory and similtaneous opinions

I took that more to be a parent knowing his child. Some people assume Winston is an intelligent and capable person like us, but he isn't. He is an ant like the rest with a little technical training. His stuggle to rebel/undersand is because he is a cog in the machine, one people like O'Brien have been trained to read like a book.
 
but what if they arent being told to get in line, what if they are being told you arent getting this food no matter what?

But that's not how the party works in the book, more like: "2 million shoes and a gazillion razors were produced this month".
 
Also, ever hear the theory that in fact Britain may be the only place that BB controls, and there could be many, many states fighting, some non even totalitarian? there is no way of knowing that BB even controls anyhtign outside Britain
 
But that's not how the party works in the book, more like: "2 million shoes and a gazillion razors were produced this month".

thats would work up to a point, but if enough people starve then the economy collapses. then theres little to bribe survivors with
 
Also, it is said that the regimes are afraid of people coming to contact with people from the other two countries. They could sympathize with them if they realized that they live in the same kind of misery. The only time they can briefly see them are the celebrations with public executions of prisoners.

I don't think they were afraid of people coming in contact because they would symathize based on misery, they didn't want a mix of ideology. The population of Oceania is brainwashed one way, how can you expect to reprogram them? You can't, you would pretty much have to kill everyone and start again. It is simple not practical for one state practicing one form of brainwashing to take core territory of another practicing another form of brainwashing. Given what we know about the death cult of East Asia, can you see them successfully governing people like Winston in Airstrip One?
 
thats would work up to a point, but if enough people starve then the economy collapses. then theres little to bribe survivors with

What economy? There's barely an economy to begin with. But yeah, if enough people starve to death, the whole thing would collapse obviously.
 
I don't think they were afraid of people coming in contact because they would symathize based on misery, they didn't want a mix of ideology. The population of Oceania is brainwashed one way, how can you expect to reprogram them? You can't, you would pretty much have to kill everyone and start again. It is simple not practical for one state practicing one form of brainwashing to take core territory of another practicing another form of brainwashing. Given what we know about the death cult of East Asia, can you see them successfully governing people like Winston in Airstrip One?

Easily. the people of airstip one are incredibly pliable. If they can be trained at a moment notice to make Eastasia the enemy instead of Eurasia, then they could easily be trained to make Eastasia's equivalent of BB their new god instead of BB
 
Easily. the people of airstip one are incredibly pliable. If they can be trained at a moment notice to make Eastasia the enemy instead of Eurasia, then they could easily be trained to make Eastasia's equivalent of BB their new god instead of BB

There are core tennets of their ideology/brainwashing that are not pliable. One being faith BB, another being Oceania is the best. In fact, it is the unquestioned faith in those core constants that makes the constant manipulation of the details possible. Not only that, I am sure the mechanizims each side uses are proceduraly different, the triggers to get certain behavior not common (these may in fact be the top state secrets).
 
Also, ever hear the theory that in fact Britain may be the only place that BB controls, and there could be many, many states fighting, some non even totalitarian? there is no way of knowing that BB even controls anyhtign outside Britain

Well, that's when we use our own experience: the only country comparable to Oceania which exists is North Korea. Do they claim that the rest of the world is equally poor? I don't know, but some North Koreans have enough information about the outside world that they attempt to escape.

I think that if Britain was the only country under BB's control, the other countries would try to subvert it, some information would get through. Also, O'Brian has some Eastasian slave, and during the executions, they show prisoners with very un-European faces.

I tend to believe that the three super-states actually exists, because that's the only way how to prevent a revolution.
 
I don't think they were afraid of people coming in contact because they would symathize based on misery, they didn't want a mix of ideology. The population of Oceania is brainwashed one way, how can you expect to reprogram them? You can't, you would pretty much have to kill everyone and start again. It is simple not practical for one state practicing one form of brainwashing to take core territory of another practicing another form of brainwashing. Given what we know about the death cult of East Asia, can you see them successfully governing people like Winston in Airstrip One?

Yeah, that too. Every superpower claims its ideology is the best and the others are evil, inhuman etc. If people had contact with each other, they'd find out that the ideologies are (in principle) very similar. It's in the interest of the party to keep this fact in secret.
 
There are core tennets of their ideology/brainwashing that are not pliable. One being faith BB, another being Oceania is the best. In fact, it is the unquestioned faith in those core constants that makes the constant manipulation of the details possible. Not only that, I am sure the mechanizims each side uses are proceduraly different, the triggers to get certain behavior not common (these may in fact be the top state secrets).

I have to say I disagree. I think, for example, Godstein could be rehabilitaed in a minite if it became expedient. If all evidence of BB worship was detroyed, I think it would be very easy for BB to "be the enemy. BB has always been the enemy"
 
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