The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread Part Four: The Genesis of Ire!

[ironduck]

I'm kidding.

Ok, just hard to tell with the kind of statements that are made in these threads..

Of course it's not inconceivable. I'm just saying I believe God made nature and made it interesting to study for our benefit.

What did god make, exactly? Did he just put the laws of physics together and let the rest fall as it may or did he know exactly what would happen? If he did, did he thereby knowingly create cancer, volcanoes, tsunamis and malaria? Those are all things I could do without studying considering the many that has perished as a result of their existence.

 

[Markus6]

Don't you think it's a bit arrogant to assume that the creator would do anything for our benefit, if he exists?

I'm a Christian. "Created in his image" and "For God so loved the world" etc. I'd say it wasn't an assumption, he's told us.

What did god make, exactly? Did he just put the laws of physics together and let the rest fall as it may or did he know exactly what would happen? If he did, did he thereby knowingly create cancer, volcanoes, tsunamis and malaria? Those are all things I could do without studying considering the many that has perished as a result of their existence.

Well i don't know exactly. I believe he did more that just set the laws up though. I don't believe cancer, volcanoes, tsunamis and malaria were part of his plan. After the 'fall' (I'm not a literal Adam and Eve guy either) the Earth isn't in God's hands, it's in ours so those things are a result of God no longer being continually involved. That said 'perishing' isn't the end of the world from my P.O.V.

 

[Souron]

I'm saying the God would not make something that's not interesting for us to study. I'm also saying that if you'd made the universe it wouldn't be interesting to study. Not that you can't make interesting things, just the universe is out of your range, I don't think Dali could do it either.

Of course it's not inconceivable. I'm just saying I believe God made nature and made it interesting to study for our benefit.

You're guessing at the nature of God here, which many theists claim to be beyond human comprehension. All christians that God is not a person, with a single consious mind, but a "trinity" of three abstract concepts. How can you even guess at the mindset of such a being?

 

[Markus6]

You're guessing at the nature of God here, which many theists claim to be beyond human comprehension. All christians that God is not a person, with a single consious mind, but a "trinity" of three abstract concepts. How can you even guess at the mindset of such a being?

I believe God revealed some of his nature in the Bible. God created the universe, the universe is interesting to study -> therefore God created the universe to be interesting to study.

On the trinity. Jesus isn't an abstract concept, he was a man. Being a trinity isn't the same as being a shizophrenic and the whole point is we believe he is still one God.

I get the feeling that all the angst that's normally vented against creationists in this thread is somehow being aimed at me. I don't like it, it's scarey.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Although physics equations should be observer independant Special Relativity says that physics experiments are never observer independant because in measuring something the observer is affecting it.

You're thinking of quantum mechanics, not special relativity.

 

[Souron]

I believe God revealed some of his nature in the Bible. God created the universe, the universe is interesting to study -> therefore God created the universe to be interesting to study.

But that does not imply that God made any special effort to make the univerce interesting to you.

On the trinity. Jesus isn't an abstract concept, he was a man. Being a trinity isn't the same as being a shizophrenic and the whole point is we believe he is still one God.

Certaintly Jesus is the most coporal part of the trinity, but the Holy Ghost is far from it. From my understanding (and I am not a christian, so teach me if I'm wrong) there is no perfect analogy that explain the idea in common terms. And From a linguistic point of view there is a contradiction of terms (3 is never 1). Basically what I am saying is that your God is not a someone you can easily personify to recieve compleate understanding of His likeness.

PS this is really far from the topic of evolution, and Perfection probably objects to the theism.

 

[Perfection]

PS this is really far from the topic of evolution, and Perfection probably objects to the theism.

I do, maybe this would be more suited with Eran's thread (link in first post)

 

[Markus6]

Sorry Perfection! It won't happen again . If ironduck or souron want to ask anymore questions I'll answer them in Eran's thread.

Now cue the creationists...

 

[JoeM]

What did god make, exactly? Did he just put the laws of physics together and let the rest fall as it may or did he know exactly what would happen? If he did, did he thereby knowingly create cancer, volcanoes, tsunamis and malaria? Those are all things I could do without studying considering the many that has perished as a result of their existence.

All knowing, all seeing, all powerful. The answer is yes to all of your questions. That people die in this universe is a fact. Immortality would be eternal banishment from Heaven.

Go here for more.

I do, maybe this would be more suited with Eran's thread (link in first post)

I've forgotten your stance (this thread has gone on for so long) ; it's basically against the illogic of Science vs Religion isn't it? The misconceptions of what is a theory, hypothesis or belief etc. etc. ad infinitum it seems.

It really irks me that people can't grasp science as an objective examination of the universe. Nothing less, and nothing more.

What really gets on my nerves is when this develops into a "disbelief" in science and medicine, and people start taking cactus juice to prevent malaria, for goodness sake.

Rant over.

 

[JoeM]

Here's my claims:
1. Evolution is a valid scientific claim

What's all this stuff do if there is no evolution?

(teaser)

Wisdom teeth? Appendix?

2. Creationism is not a valid scientific claim

Creationism is based on faith. Science is based on observation.

Note: When I refer to creationism I'm refering to god creating life directly (not through evolution), this includes such permutations as intelligent design theory,

<Shudders>

gap creationism as well as literal 7-day creationism. I am not refering to evolutionary creationism.

What is 'gap creationism'?

 

[Che Guava]

What is 'gap creationism'?

In short: god took a 10 000 year 'break' between each of the first seven days described in Genesis

 

[brennan]

I'm kidding. If the ether did exist and we were hurtling through space at 30km/s then I'm sure we would feel the effects. However, the Earth is obviously stationary so even if it did exist we wouldn't notice.

I suggest you read about the Michelson-Morley_experiment; they assumed there was an ether/aether but failed to find it, in fact relativity theory was in part an attempt to solve the theoretical problems this finding created.

 

[ironduck]

In short: god took a 10 000 year 'break' between each of the first seven days described in Genesis

What are the 7x10,000 years supposed to explain?

 

[brennan]

And the evidence for this is...?

 

[Che Guava]

What are the 7x10,000 years supposed to explain?

The fact that a lot of geological and boilogical evidence points to the fact that the earth is older than 6 000 years. I just arbitrarily chose 10 000 years there, but there are a couple GC theories:

(1) there is a gap of 10 000+ years between day 6 and day 7 in Genesis, during which time a lot of evolution/geologic stuff occured

(2)there is a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 (between the start and finish of the heavens and the earth), that possibly involved the downfall of lucifer and the restoration of earth, which some credit for geologic phenomena in the world

 

[ironduck]

Gaps of some kind make sense, I just figured it would be better to pick a few hundred million year size gaps..

 

[Che Guava]

One step at a time...!

 

[warpus]

I'm a Christian. "Created in his image" and "For God so loved the world" etc. I'd say it wasn't an assumption, he's told us.

That's what I'm saying. It's an arrogant Christian claim - and one of the reasons I've distanced myself from the faith.

 

[carlosMM]

That is BS. The Bible never says anything about earth being the centre of the universe. All you are doing is twisting common phrases and then saying that the Bible means that the earth is the centre of the universe.

hey CH, nice to see you drop in again, will you now answer the open questions to you about the ancient protowhale?

 

[ironduck]

I'm thinking about setting up a new animal-bone contest if there's any interest from any of the creationists