The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread!

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ybbor said:
who said the beneficial mutation is dominat? it could very well be recessive,
Then it wouldn't be expressed, it would have to wait until coming onto another pair when that occurs then we would have it expressed, then through some level of inbreeding it would spread. It's a much slower process but it's still quite possible and does occur

ybbor said:
just because something made the dog survive to the point where it could breed (that was essentially all it did according to natural selection) doesn't mean the trait is excessive
Not neccesarily, it's not only about making it to breeding states, it's about number of offspring produced and ability to provide for offspring. Might I add that surviving to the point of being able to breed in the wild is not always easy.
 
Perfection said:
Then it wouldn't be expressed, it would have to wait until coming onto another pair when that occurs then we would have it expressed, then through some level of inbreeding it would spread. It's a much slower process but it's still quite possible and does occur

so essentially we have to wait for the same trait to appear twice? and just happen to appear in in just the right pair of animals that it would continue? and then what about the next generation?

perfection said:
Not neccesarily, it's not only about making it to breeding states, it's about number of offspring produced and ability to provide for offspring. Might I add that surviving to the point of being able to breed in the wild is not always easy.
[btw, just for the record, i didn't mean excessive, that was a typo, i ment dominatnt wierd typo huh? :crazyeye: ]

that doesn't change the point that it doesn't really matter about the number of offspring produced, providing for them, or just bieng able to produce them doesn't matter if you can't pass on your genes
 
ybbor said:
so essentially we have to wait for the same trait to appear twice?
Correct, but if a bottleneck event occurs or there is a good amount of inbreeding this can happen quite quickly.

ybbor said:
and just happen to appear in in just the right pair of animals that it would continue? and then what about the next generation?
Next generation wouldn't be affected, however after some in breeding the trait can reemerge.

ybbor said:
that doesn't change the point that it doesn't really matter about the number of offspring produced, providing for them, or just bieng able to produce them doesn't matter if you can't pass on your genes
But you do, some may not be immediatly expressed but you pass on your genes.
 
Well, since you wanted the long explanation, here it is:

I’ll start with the process of domestication (highlighting the study talked about in my earlier post). It is generally accepted that dogs are the descendants of Eurasian grey wolves, and there is evidence that they may have originated in east Asia. The dog may be a very young species at only 14 000 years old, although genetic evidence suggests dog may have began to diverge from the wolf as long as 135 000 years ago. However, even though dogs are the recent descendants of wolves and are very similar to wolves in terms of both behavior and morphology, they are in several ways quite different from wolves. Dogs display a large number of characters not seen in wolves, such as piebald coats, floppy ears, and curly tails. Wolves are also seasonal breeders, with both males and females becoming fertile once per year. Dogs are not seasonal breeders, and most female dogs (with some rare exceptions) come into season twice per year, and male dogs are fertile year round. Dogs also have smaller skulls relative to their overall size than wolves and are able to form social bonds for a longer period of time during their early lives than are wolves.

Interestingly, many of the morphological and physiological differences that exist between dogs and wolves may not have been intentionally selected for by humans, and could have been a result of selection for tameness in dogs. That’s where the article I posted earlier comes in, the experiment which involved Siberian foxes (Vulpes vulpes) demonstrates how this could have happened. The experiment was started in the 1940's by the Russian geneticist Dmitri Belyaev, who studied the process of domestication using a population of fur farm foxes. The foxes used in the beginning stages of the experiment were difficult to handle, very afraid of people and generally behaved like wild animals. The experimenters began to selectively breed the foxes for one trait - tameness around people. At the age of one month, an experimenter would offer food to each fox kit while trying to pet and handle it. This was done twice - while the kit was alone and while it was with other fox kits. This routine was repeated monthly until the kit was seven to eight months old and at that point, each kit was assigned to one of three classes based on how tame it was. Class III foxes attempted to flee from experimenters or tried to bite them. Class II foxes were not friendly to the experimenters, but allowed themselves to be touched. Class I foxes were friendly towards the experimenters and would often approach them. After six generations of breeding only tame foxes, a new class, Class IE, ("domesticated elite") had to be added. These foxes were very dog-like and actively sought out human attention and would lick experimenters and wag their tails like dogs. After twenty generations, 35% of the experimental foxes were domesticated elite and today, 70-80% of the foxes are.

Since the foxes in the experiment were being selectively bred for a behavioral trait (tameness), the experimenters hypothesized that physiological changes in the systems governing the fox's hormones and neurotransmitters would also occur, as an animal's behavior is often mediated by these chemicals. Indeed, that is exactly what happened. As the experiment proceeded, a steady drop in the hormone producing activity of the domestic fox's adrenal glands was measured. For example, after several generations of selective breeding, the basal level of corticosteroids in the blood of the domesticated foxes was far lower than that of the control group of non-domesticated foxes. Changes in the neurochemistry of the domesticated foxes were also noted, as they had higher levels of serotonin in their brains compared to the control group of foxes.

After several generations of selecting for tameness, new traits only rarely seen in wild foxes began to become more common in the domesticated population. For example, after ten generations, several of the domesticated foxes had piebald coloured or brown mottled coats. Later in the experiment, it was noted that several of the tame foxes had floppy ears, short tails or curly tails. Even later, changes in the skull morphology of the foxes was noted as well, as skull measurements showed that the cranial height and width of the domesticated foxes tended to be smaller than those of control group foxes. The domestic foxes also had shorter and wider muzzles than the control group ones.

Many of the differences between the domestic foxes and the wild foxes are similar to the differences seen between domestic dogs and wolves. Wolves do not have floppy ears, curly tails, or piebald colored coats, but many dogs do. Skull size is also one of the main ways dogs differ from wolves and selecting foxes only for tameness changed their skull size. The results of this experiment seem to suggest that many of the unique characters seen in dogs and not wolves are a result of the selection of dogs for tameness. But, how does selecting animals for a behavioral trait change their overall morphology like this? It has already been noted that selecting animals for a behavioral trait can change the amount of hormones and neurotransmitters produced by the animals because an animal's behavior is often controlled by such chemicals. The early development of an animal is also, in part, controlled by these chemicals, so a small change in the animal's endocrine and neurochemical systems may result in changes to the early development of the animal.

Several developmental differences in the domestic foxes compared to the wild foxes were noted in the experiment. The domestic fox kits' eyes opened earlier than the control foxes, and they also responded to noise earlier than the wild foxes. The domestic foxes also began to show a fear of unknown stimuli starting later in life than the non-domestic foxes. This means that the domestic foxes had a longer window of socialization than did the wild foxes. In canids, the window of socialization in which the animal can form social bonds begins when its ears and eyes open and it can explore its environment and closes when it begins to fear novel stimuli. Dogs differ from wolves in the length of their window of socialization. In wolves, this window closes at about three weeks, and it dogs it closes at 8 to 12 weeks, depending on the breed.

Several of the morphological changes seen in the foxes seem to be a result of changes to their early development. Floppy ears and curly tails, for instance, are characteristic of young fox kits and these traits are carried over into adulthood in many of the domestic foxes. The changes noted in the morphology of the fox's skulls may also be a result of early developmental changes, but this conclusion cannot be made since only the skulls of adult foxes were studied. Overall, however, many of the changes to the domestic foxes resemble paedeomorphosis, or the retention of juvenile traits in adults.

Many researchers consider dogs to be paedeomorphic wolves, meaning that they have retained characteristics that are typical of juvenile wolves as adults. For example, the floppy ears that characterize most dog breeds may be paedeomorphic trait, as very young wolf pups have floppy ears, which straighten shortly after birth. Even the erect-eared dogs, such as huskies and German shepherds, have ears which straighten up later than do the ears of wolf pups. The curled sickle tail of most domestic dogs is also a neotenous trait. Adult wolves typically have straight tails that are carried at a downward-pointing angle, whereas wolf pups, like many adult domestic dogs, have tails that are carried up above the back.

The bark of domestic dogs is another juvenile trait. Adult wolves can and do bark as an alarm call, but they rarely do. However, wolf pups bark more often than adult wolves, which makes them similar to many domestic dogs. Adult dogs also have skull characteristics that make them rather similar to four-month-old wolf pups (Coppinger, R. and Coppinger, L., "Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution." 2001). When a dog reaches four months of age, its head's growth rate slows down relative to the growth rate of the rest of its body. A four month old wolf's head will continue to grow at a more rapid rate relative to a dog's until it is about seven or eight months old. The result is that adult wolf-sized dogs have head sizes that are similar to that of a juvenile wolf's.

On to Artificial vs. Natural selection:

Today, it is clear that the evolution of the dog is being shaped by artificial selection because many dog breeders select dogs for certain working behaviors or, more often, a certain desired look. It is often assumed that humans domesticated dogs by taking wolf pups, taming them and selecting the best tempered wolves for breeding. Gradually, tamer, easier to handle "wolves" (dogs) were produced from this process. However, this may not have been the case, because how and why wolves became associated with human beings is not yet known. The archaeological record gives very little indication as to how the dog diverged from the wolf. Debates on this topic often focus on the issue of intentionally, or whether or not humans consciously began to breed wolves to produce dogs. A scenario outlining how the dog may have evolved by a process of natural selection is described in detail by Coppinger and Coppinger, and Budiansky, S. (The Truth about Dogs: An Inquiry into the Ancestry, Social Conventions, Mental Habits and Moral Fiber of Canis familiaris, 2000). They point out that Palaeolithic and early Neolithic people would have been very unlikely to have raised young wolf pups as pets, since raising wolf pups is an extremely difficult and time consuming task. Wolf puppies must be imprinted on humans starting at about 10 days to ensure that they are not afraid of humans as adults. Such a young puppy would need to be bottle-fed by humans, and pre-historic people probably would not have possessed the equipment needed to do it. Domesticating wolves would have necessarily involved a huge number of wolves as well, and there is no evidence that Palaeolithic people ever kept large numbers of wolves. For example, the experiment described above where domesticated silver foxes were produced in relatively few generations from a starting population of what were essentially wild foxes involved thousands of animals. It is unlikely that prehistoric people could have ever kept very many wolves captive in their settlements.

The dog, then, may be a species that was the result of natural selection. A new "niche" was opened for animals about 10 000 years ago as some groups of humans began to settle into permanent settlements instead of living as nomads. Animals could live around these settlements and scavenge for food bits left around by people. Dogs may have "self-domesticated" when they started scavenging waste from the human settlements that began to appear at this time. For any animal to succeed in such a niche, it would have to be comfortable living and eating in close proximity to humans, as an animal that feared them would not be able to survive in human settlements and would return to living away from people. Wild dogs that were less cautious around people than others may have began to live near humans, and natural selection would gradually produce "proto-dogs" from these animals that did not fear humans and could live in close proximity to them. Indeed, today in several parts of the world dogs do live like this. Many villages across the world are home to dogs that live as scavengers and who are not intentionally cared for by humans. The first primitive dogs were likely very similar to these scavenging village dogs.

These early canids that lived on the fringes of human society scavenging scraps may be the ancestor of early dog breeds. These animals, which were already tame around humans, could be taken and used as hunting companions, or livestock guardians and different dog types likely evolved from these proto-dogs, not wolves. Artificial selection by humans also further shaped the evolution of the dog, as dogs with traits desired by humans would have been better cared for than others, and would have been more likely to survive and breed.
 
dogs have been bred for generations and generations, and some dogs are naturally bigger than other breeds of dogs, but they still aren't bigger than modern day wolves

ever seen a German (Dansih) mastiff? They weigh up to double and are decidedly higher and broader than wolves....

I seriously doubt 2 1/2 feet for mastiffs - I personally have had one press his nose into my bellybotton just stnading normally - that's at about 3 1/2 feet.

the dog breeds that are naturally big (the variable) haven't gotton any bigger compared to wolves (the constant).

see above - nope!

get your facts straihgt, please!

Another question you should ask yourself here is WHY? Why should humans breed dogs alrger than wovles? If there really was no need (but there was, you want a dog large enough to scare off a wolf going for your sheep), then it would only be logical that nobody bred dogs that large.

As you see, your arguement rests on hollow feet.

well, first yes some do, the example of apes/chimps/monkeys-->humans to mind. second, yeah, in hindsight that wasn't the best anolgy, maybe cats would have beena better example, but i definitly recognize that n sane evolutionist would propose dogs-->elephants

:jesus:, you guys really are slow upstairs! No RECENT ape will ever become a HUMAN!
gargh!

just because with hindsight we would TODAY call our common ancestor an ape doesn't mean it has any closer connection to todays apes than to use.
 
It's very clear that many of the creationists still do not grasp the fundamentals of evolutionary theory. They seem to think, not only that dogs will turn into whales, but that they will do so in a few years. I think they have two problems: 1) they don't understand geologic time and what 60 million years really means, and 2) "When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Their blinkered vision forces them to make everything fit into a rigid, inflexible view of the world.
 
carlosMM said:
ever seen a German (Dansih) mastiff? They weigh up to double and are decidedly higher and broader than wolves....

I seriously doubt 2 1/2 feet for mastiffs - I personally have had one press his nose into my bellybotton just stnading normally - that's at about 3 1/2 feet.

well, 2 things 1)if you read i said from the shoulders because those were the measurements i have. 2) those hieghts were the typicalheight for the animal, obviously not every dog on the planet is the sqame height, some dogs happen to be bigger than other dogs, just like some wolves happen to be bigger than other wolves


carlosMM said:
see above - nope!

get your facts straihgt, please!

Another question you should ask yourself here is WHY? Why should humans breed dogs alrger than wovles? If there really was no need (but there was, you want a dog large enough to scare off a wolf going for your sheep), then it would only be logical that nobody bred dogs that large.

As you see, your arguement rests on hollow feet.

see above- nope! :p

as for the why- people have been breeding dogs purebread, as some breeds ar bigger the dogs should get bigger. but no. becuase there is limited variation in the gene pool (and it's paws, not feet :p )



carlosMM said:
:jesus:, you guys really are slow upstairs! No RECENT ape will ever become a HUMAN!
gargh!

just because with hindsight we would TODAY call our common ancestor an ape doesn't mean it has any closer connection to todays apes than to use.

whatever, if you read that post in context i wasn't using that argument to prove anything, support anything or in any way be used to defeat darwinism, or support creationism, it was more a poke at [zombie]the future ruler of the world[/zombie] to not overstate things, and i wouldn't be surprised to see some darwinist claim that apes-->humans

Birdjaguar said:
It's very clear that many of the creationists still do not grasp the fundamentals of evolutionary theory. They seem to think, not only that dogs will turn into whales, but that they will do so in a few years. I think they have two problems: 1) they don't understand geologic time and what 60 million years really means, and 2) "When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Their blinkered vision forces them to make everything fit into a rigid, inflexible view of the world.


no, i have a fully functioning view of the world, i'm just saying based on the evidence i've seen, what i belive in is that there was an intelligent designer at work. i don't expect dogs to evolve into whales (actually i don't expect them to evolve into anything) and i recognize that no darwinist does either. a part of darwin's analogy of artificial==>natural selection is that humans (with an intelligent rational purpose, and intelligent means to get the desired end result) can do purposefully in several generations what nature can do aimlessly in a few thousand years
 
ybbor said:
i'm just saying based on the evidence i've seen, what i belive in is that there was an intelligent designer at work. i don't expect dogs to evolve into whales (actually i don't expect them to evolve into anything) and i recognize that no darwinist does either. a part of darwin's analogy of artificial==>natural selection is that humans (with an intelligent rational purpose, and intelligent means to get the desired end result) can do purposefully in several generations what nature can do aimlessly in a few thousand years
Perhaps you meant to say "what i belive in is that there was an intelligent designer at work [and] based on the evidence i've seen [evolution can't be true]. It's a question of which came first; your belief in ID or the disbelief of TOE. If your belief in intelligent design grew out of an in depth study of evolution then your sequence could be correct.

Do you believe in geologic time? (Pardon me for being too lazy to search through all previous posts for this.)
 
Birdjaguar said:
Do you believe in geologic time? (Pardon me for being too lazy to search through all previous posts for this.)

well, searching through all posts of mine in this thread would take you all the way back to, friday, so not that much searching would be required (btw, i never mentioned any of what i believe in as far as geological time ;) )

well, i am not 100% certian about the length of time it took to create the universe, i'll have to ask the big guy himself that one, (or wait for the DVD with extra bonus footage of an interview with the "director" ) but i believe in 'gap creationism' as some call it. the "days" mentined in the bible i belive to be symbolic, as in "the day of feudul japan" or "the day of my youth" etc. at the same time God lies outside of time so it could mean something completely different. when i finnaly have the question answered, on the other side of eternity will i be surprised if it turns out it was created in a billion years? no. will i be surprised if it turns out the universe was created in 6 24hour days? no. if someone asked me to partciapte in a debate on gap creationism vs. 6 day creationism iw ould politly decline, and instead lsiten to the debate to get a better understanding. my issue is not with wheter there was an intelligent sesigner, but how the intelligent dwsigner worked

EDIT: fearless leader2 said it well:
The Bible doesn't talk about breeding communities because 'how' is not as important as 'why' to its message
the bible's entire theme is the saving of humanity. it was created to bring humanity [much] closer to God
 
ybbor said:
well, 2 things 1)if you read i said from the shoulders because those were the measurements i have. 2) those hieghts were the typicalheight for the animal, obviously not every dog on the planet is the sqame height, some dogs happen to be bigger than other dogs, just like some wolves happen to be bigger than other wolves
Let's not equate tallness with bigness, remember the measurement of height only has to do with leg length and nothing to do with body length or body mass, second there are freak of nature dogs that are much taller so it's certainly possible for them to get taller.

ybbor said:
see above- nope! :p

as for the why- people have been breeding dogs purebread, as some breeds ar bigger the dogs should get bigger. but no. becuase there is limited variation in the gene pool (and it's paws, not feet :p )
Once again they are breed for bigness not tallness. We know they can get longer bigger smaller and shorter, so the lack of clear cut evidence of tallness doesn't dispell the idea that they can have new variation, this is just one direction where the variation doesn't provide as clear cut example. If practicially every other measurement can be both bigger and smaller than that of wolves and one provides few cases where the measurement is bigger and many where it is smaller it still provides excellent evidence to the power of size variation.

ybbor said:
no, i have a fully functioning view of the world, i'm just saying based on the evidence i've seen, what i belive in is that there was an intelligent designer at work. i don't expect dogs to evolve into whales (actually i don't expect them to evolve into anything) and i recognize that no darwinist does either. a part of darwin's analogy of artificial==>natural selection is that humans (with an intelligent rational purpose, and intelligent means to get the desired end result) can do purposefully in several generations what nature can do aimlessly in a few thousand years
Once again, you claim aimlessly, repoductive sucess is the aim. Also for an intelligent designer creating without using evolution how can you explain useless vestigial structures?
 
ybbor said:
well, i am not 100% certian about the length of time it took to create the universe, i'll have to ask the big guy himself that one, (or wait for the DVD with extra bonus footage of an interview with the "director" ) but i believe in 'gap creationism' as some call it. the "days" mentined in the bible i belive to be symbolic, as in "the day of feudul japan" or "the day of my youth" etc. at the same time God lies outside of time so it could mean something completely different. when i finnaly have the question answered, on the other side of eternity will i be surprised if it turns out it was created in a billion years? no. will i be surprised if it turns out the universe was created in 6 24hour days? no. if someone asked me to partciapte in a debate on gap creationism vs. 6 day creationism iw ould politly decline, and instead lsiten to the debate to get a better understanding. my issue is not with wheter there was an intelligent sesigner, but how the intelligent dwsigner worked
Could it be intelligently designed through evolution? Why can't your philosophy agree with science?
 
Red Threat said:
This is a very funny thread. :lol:

In Europe there's no struggle between evolutionists/creationists. Darwin rules. Nobody doubts it.
Really, noone? There another reason I'm gald I'm a American.
********
Your article is very interesting. Yet the idea that man can influence the animals offspring is very ancient.( Egyptians was probably the ones for domesticating cats.) It's even recorded in Genesis 30:37-39. These verses doesn't necessary says the this method is valid but Jacob himself believe this method work. the point was, Jacob at this time wasn't fully trusting in God but leaning on his own devices. ( I wonder myself if Jacob's trick actually works.)
 
Smidlee said:
Really, noone? There another reason I'm gald I'm a American.
********
Your article is very interesting. Yet the idea that man can influence the animals offspring is very ancient.( Egyptians was probably the ones for domesticating cats.) It's even recorded in Genesis 30:37-39. These verses doesn't necessary says the this method is valid but Jacob himself believe this method work. the point was, Jacob at this time wasn't fully trusting in God but leaning on his own devices. ( I wonder myself if Jacob's trick actually works.)

so?

does that mean you stipulate to massive changes in a animals appearance and behaviour through mutation and selection?

and what does the fact that mthere might be a little blurp about it in the bible have to do with scientifically proven facts?
 
ybbor said:
well, searching through all posts of mine in this thread would take you all the way back to, friday, so not that much searching would be required (btw, i never mentioned any of what i believe in as far as geological time ;) )

well, i am not 100% certian about the length of time it took to create the universe, i'll have to ask the big guy himself that one, (or wait for the DVD with extra bonus footage of an interview with the "director" ) but i believe in 'gap creationism' as some call it. the "days" mentined in the bible i belive to be symbolic, as in "the day of feudul japan" or "the day of my youth" etc. at the same time God lies outside of time so it could mean something completely different. when i finnaly have the question answered, on the other side of eternity will i be surprised if it turns out it was created in a billion years? no. will i be surprised if it turns out the universe was created in 6 24hour days? no. if someone asked me to partciapte in a debate on gap creationism vs. 6 day creationism iw ould politly decline, and instead lsiten to the debate to get a better understanding. my issue is not with wheter there was an intelligent sesigner, but how the intelligent dwsigner worked

EDIT: fearless leader2 said it well: the bible's entire theme is the saving of humanity. it was created to bring humanity [much] closer to God


how is this post an answer to the question of geologic time? :lol:

see here:
earth is 4.5 billion years old.
life is 3.5 billion years old.
dinosaurs and humans never existed at the same time.


yes or no?
 
carlosMM said:
how is this post an answer to the question of geologic time? :lol:

see here:
earth is 4.5 billion years old.
life is 3.5 billion years old.
dinosaurs and humans never existed at the same time.


yes or no?
i cannot tell you with 100% certainity , but i would probably say yes
 
ybbor said:
i cannot tell you with 100% certainity , but i would probably say yes


OK, that's a clear answer.

this means that
a) there is a LOT of time for evolution to happen
b) you must be aware of the long sequencs of similar but ever changing animals in the fossil record.
c) you must achknowledge that about 99,99% of all species that ever existed are no more.

do you thus propose that there is a creator who creates populations of new species every now and tehn, costantly, for the last 3.5 billion years, each of which then evolves into a group of closely related and similar species?

is that, basically, what you claim?
 
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