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Speaking of the Bolshevik position on the Ukraine situation (and the breaking away of regions), Lenin spoke to the self-determination of.nations in 1916

The Socialist Revolution and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination

1. Imperialism, Socialism, and the Liberation of Oppressed Nations

Imperialismis the highest stage of development of capitalism. Capital in the advanced countries has outgrown the boundaries of national states. It has established monopoly in place of competition, thus creating all the objective prerequisites for the achievement of socialism. Hence, in Western Europe and in the United States of America, the revolutionary struggle of the proletariat for the overthrow of the capitalist governments, for the expropriation of the bourgeoisie, is on the order of the day. Imperialism is forcing the masses into this struggle by sharpening class antagonisms to an immense degree, by worsening the conditions of the masses both economically—trusts and high cost of living, and politically—growth of militarism, frequent wars, increase of reaction, strengthening and extension of national oppression and colonial plunder. Victorious socialism must achieve complete democracy and, consequently, not only bring about the complete equality of nations, but also give effect to the right of oppressed nations to self-determination, i.e., the right to free political secession. Socialist Parties which fail to prove by all their activities now, as well as during the revolution and after its victory, that they will free the enslaved nations and establish relations with them on the basis of a free union and a free union is a lying phrase without right to secession—such parties would be committing treachery to socialism.

Ofcourse, democracy is also a form of state which must disappear when the state disappears, but this will take place only in the process of transition from completely victorious and consolidated socialism to complete communism.

2. The Socialist Revolution and the Struggle for Democracy

Thesocialist revolution is not one single act, not one single battle on a single front; but a whole epoch of intensified class conflicts, a long series of battles on all fronts, i.e., battles around all the problems of economics and politics, which can culminate only in the expropriation of the bourgeoisie. It would be a fundamental mistake to suppose that the struggle for democracy can divert the proletariat from the socialist revolution, or obscure, or overshadow it, etc. On the contrary, just as socialism cannot be victorious unless it introduces complete democracy, so the proletariat will be unable to prepare for victory over the bourgeoisie unless it wages a many-sided, consistent and revolutionary struggle for democracy.

Itwould be no less mistaken to delete any of the points of the democratic programme, for example, the point of self-determination of nations, on the ground that it is “infeasible,” or that it is “illusory” under imperialism. The assertion that the right of nations to self-determination cannot be achieved within the framework of capitalism may be understood either in its absolute, economic sense, or in the conventional, political sense.
Inthe first case, the assertion is fundamentally wrong in theory.


First, in this sense, it is impossible to achieve such things as labour money, or the abolition of crises, etc., under capitalism. But it is entirely incorrect to argue that the self-determination of nations is likewise infeasible. Secondly, even the one example of the secession of Norway from Sweden in 1905 is sufficient to refute the argument that it is “infeasible” in this sense. Thirdly, it would be ridiculous to deny that, with a slight change in political and strategical relationships, for example, between Germany and England, the formation of new states, Polish, Indian, etc, would be quite “feasible” very soon. Fourthly, finance capital, in its striving towards expansion, will “freely” buy and bribe the freest, most democratic and republican government and the elected officials of any country, however “independent” it may be. The domination of finance capital, as of capital in general, cannot be abolished by any kind of reforms in the realm of political democracy, and self-determination belongs wholly and exclusively to this realm.
The domination of finance capital, however, does not in the least destroy the significance of political democracy as the freer, wider and more distinct form of class oppression and class struggle. Hence, all arguments about the “impossibility of achieving” economically one of the demands of political democracy under capitalism reduce themselves to a theoretically incorrect definition of the general and fundamental relations of capitalism and of political democracy in general.

Inthe second case, this assertion is incomplete and inaccurate, for not only the right of nations to self-determination, but all the fundamental demands of political democracy are “possible of achievement” under imperialism, only in an incomplete, in a mutilated form and as a rare exception (for example, the secession of Norway from Sweden in 1905). The demand for the immediate liberation of the colonies, as advanced by all revolutionary Social-Democrats, is also “impossible of achievement” under capitalism without a series of revolutions. This does not imply, however, that Social Democracy must refrain from conducting an immediate and most determined struggle for all these demands—to refrain would merely be to the advantage of the bourgeoisie and reaction. On the contrary, it implies that it is necessary to formulate and put forward all these demands, not in a reformist, but in a revolutionary way; not by keeping within the framework of bourgeois legality, but by breaking through it; not by confining oneself to parliamentary speeches and verbal protests, but by drawing the masses into real action, by widening and fomenting the struggle for every kind of fundamental, democratic demand, right up to and including the direct onslaught of the proletariat against the bourgeoisie, i.e., to the socialist revolution, which will expropriate the bourgeoisie. The socialist revolution may break out not only in consequence of a great strike, a street demonstration, a hunger riot, a mutiny in the forces, or a colonial rebellion, but also in consequence of any political crisis, like the Dreyfus affair,[4]
the Zabern incident,[5]
or in connection with a referendum on the secession of an oppressed nation, etc.

Theintensification of national oppression under imperialism makes it necessary for Social-Democracy not to renounce what the bourgeoisie describes as the “utopian” struggle for the freedom of nations to secede, but, on the contrary, to take more advantage than ever before of conflicts arising also on this ground for the purpose of rousing mass action and revolutionary attacks upon the bourgeoisie.
 
Russia may be practicing what it preaches, but it sure is not going well for Syria these days.
 
Russia may be practicing what it preaches, but it sure is not going well for Syria these days.

That has more to do with the US intervention...
 
US is not that only nation with capabilities to intervene, and to answer the question nothing, but then again I never mentioned the US.
 
US is not that only nation with capabilities to intervene, and to answer the question nothing, but then again I never mentioned the US.

Correction: the US and its allies in the region -- amely the Saudis and Israel (not to mention Jordan, from which US-trained and equipped anti-Assad terrorists have already gone into Syria, according to the NYT) -- have had more to do with the instability in Syria... And the US and EU are the ones supporting the "government" in Kyiv.
 
Speaking of the Bolshevik position on the Ukraine situation (and the breaking away of regions), Lenin spoke to the self-determination of.nations in 1916
What about East Turkistan and Tibet?
 
Correction: the US and its allies in the region -- amely the Saudis and Israel (not to mention Jordan, from which US-trained and equipped anti-Assad terrorists have already gone into Syria, according to the NYT) -- have had more to do with the instability in Syria... And the US and EU are the ones supporting the "government" in Kyiv.

Can you explain to me how any of that is helping Syria's right to self determination, and Russia's non-involvement?
 
I don't understand the question.
What about them?

I mean, you agree with Lenin's stance that countries have a right to self-determination (never mind the fact that he took the opposite stance towards Georgia, Armenia, the unmentionable country, and most other countries that broke away from the Russian Empire). So do the Tibetans and Uighurs have a right to self-determination and the right to secede from China?
 
Phrossack, you are wrong.

Cheezy knows more about Russia, but the policy of the USSR was exactly about Lenin's position. The reason there was a USSR TO break up (and its ability to dissolve in 1991) was facilitated by this policy. Until the October 1917 Revolution, Russian was the only language of the Empire. The USSR helped revive the regional and national languages and cultures through Stalin, yes, Stalin, as Commissar of Nationalities.

Don't get me started on Tibet. It is an autonomous province, run by Tibetans. Look it up. The Dalai Lama is a bankrupt leader of a slaving obscurantist sect of Buddhism. Heinrich Harrar, his tutor, was a freaking Nazi.

I will link some Tibet articles in the morning, if I am not too busy (or too tired from) fornicating.
 
Don't get me started on Tibet. It is an autonomous province, run by Tibetans. Look it up. The Dalai Lama is a bankrupt leader of a slaving obscurantist sect of Buddhism. Heinrich Harrar, his tutor, was a freaking Nazi.

I will link some Tibet articles in the morning, if I am not too busy (or too tired from) fornicating.

As a Chinese, I've never viewed Tibetans as "one of us" and they are most definitely going to lose a lot of their culture in a few generations.
 
Phrossack, you are wrong.

Cheezy knows more about Russia, but the policy of the USSR was exactly about Lenin's position. The reason there was a USSR TO break up (and its ability to dissolve in 1991) was facilitated by this policy. Until the October 1917 Revolution, Russian was the only language of the Empire. The USSR helped revive the regional and national languages and cultures through Stalin, yes, Stalin, as Commissar of Nationalities.
The Bolsheviks didn't exactly ask the Georgians, P*les, Armenians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Turkmen, Tajiks, Uzbeks, and others if they wanted independence. Unless you count wars of conquest as asking. Which you apparently do, as long as it's Communists doing the killing.

Don't get me started on Tibet. It is an autonomous province, run by Tibetans. Look it up.
China isn't exactly keen on allowing Tibetans independence, though. Autonomy is merely a tool of Chinese imperialists to distract and placate their Tibetan subjects, to use your language. China invaded Tibet. Look it up. But apparently, you believe that those who claim to be Communists can do no wrong. Seriously, even your fellow Communists here have noticed. It's a bit disturbing to see someone so devoted to an ideology that he has lost his ability to question it.

The Dalai Lama is a bankrupt leader of a slaving obscurantist sect of Buddhism. Heinrich Harrar, his tutor, was a freaking Nazi.
That has no bearing on the right of Tibetans to self-determination. I said nothing about the Dalai Lama. You're merely trying to distract from the issue.

I will link some Tibet articles in the morning, if I am not too busy (or too tired from) fornicating.

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The Bolsheviks didn't exactly ask the Georgians, P*les, Armenians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Turkmen, Tajiks, Uzbeks, and others if they wanted independence. Unless you count wars of conquest as asking. Which you apparently do, as long as it's Communists doing the killing.

Bolsheviks are all Russians now? There were even Bolsheviks among the P*les
 
Bolsheviks are all Russians now? There were even Bolsheviks among the P*les
Fine then, the Red Army. My point is that "national self-determination" Lenin had no qualms with invading former parts of the Russian Empire that had declared independence.
 
I don't understand the question.

What does anything that you have responded with help the Syrians who have been ran out of their homeland which has been turned into a waste land, because a few of them wanted a new chance at not living under a dictator? Why did Russia seem to sit by and just watch it all go to....?
 
Fine then, the Red Army. My point is that "national self-determination" Lenin had no qualms with invading former parts of the Russian Empire that had declared independence.

Who declared independence though? Workers of those nationalities, or the ruling classes?
 
The Bolsheviks didn't exactly ask the Georgians, P*les, Armenians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Turkmen, Tajiks, Uzbeks, and others if they wanted independence. Unless you count wars of conquest as asking. Which you apparently do, as long as it's Communists doing the killing.
Characterization devoid of data.

China isn't exactly keen on allowing Tibetans independence, though. Autonomy is merely a tool of Chinese imperialists to distract and placate their Tibetan subjects, to use your language. China invaded Tibet. Look it up. But apparently, you believe that those who claim to be Communists can do no wrong. Seriously, even your fellow Communists here have noticed. It's a bit disturbing to see someone so devoted to an ideology that he has lost his ability to question it.
Also characterizations. China liberated Tibet from an obscurantist slave system posing as a sect of buddhism. The Dalai Lama's tutorr, Heinrich Harrar, was a Nazi.

And why should I China-bash?

And why should I question my own beliefs? What kind of lily-livered, yellow-bellied, panty-waist alters his belief system on the basis of the lies of a hundred mouths of the bourgeoisie press? I have been a communist revolutionary for 22 years. I have withstood torture, jail, fires, harrassment for my work. I know whom I serve, I know my enemy.

That has no bearing on the right of Tibetans to self-determination.
It does. But that is for Tibetans to decide. Do you see any mass movement within Tibet to "free" it?
 
Perhaps you are unaware that that the PR China does not allow unauthorized mass movements. They only allow capitalism (which seems to go down rather well with the Chinese). Apparently you are also unaware of the Tibetan uprising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959_Tibetan_uprising) and more recent protests, which were also suppressed. Of course one would have to consult non-Communist media to learn of such things.
 
I am aware. But citing "wikipedia" as substantiating evidemce is like using "How the Grinch Stole Christmas" as a Catechism text.

Link Xinhua or China Daily articles and I will read them.
 
I am aware. But citing "wikipedia" as substantiating evidemce is like using "How the Grinch Stole Christmas" as a Catechism text.

Link Xinhua or China Daily articles and I will read them.

Wikipedia is an excellent source. Generally speaking, that is. Sometimes, though it is terrible. But absent specific criticism I would defer to what is written there.
 
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