The Offtopicgrad Soviet: A Place to Discuss All Things Red

Wikipedia is an excellent source. Generally speaking, that is. Sometimes, though it is terrible. But absent specific criticism I would defer to what is written there.

I understand, and, like How the Grinch Stole Christmas is an excellent read, it is far better to find source material.

I confess, I wrote my first wikipedia article this year for a friend who is a documentary film producer... (she helped produce The Square and Meet the Patels And their vetting process is awful... It took a month to get that thing out of the "Sandbox."
 
If you wrote a wiki article, you should then also be aware you are supposed to cite actual sources, not use that big thumb of yours. Otherwise you'll find a lot of "citation required"s in your article.

And you did not get that knowledge about Tibetan rebelliousness from the Beijing Daily, as they only publish officially approved news (otherwise known as censored).

Finally, if you were aware, why did you then post a comment arguing the exact opposite of what you apparently knew?
 
Because wikipedia folks are a bunch of crapheads, and "actual" sources is an effing farce. I know, I have been there. Wikipedia is good for a few things, but if you cite it again, I will put you on the ignore list.

Discussion Point: going back to Lavoisier. Luiz says he was killed for being a scientist. West India Man says he was beheaded for being an aristocrat.

My argument: Lavoisier went to a Dutch Doctor complaining of a headache and the guillotine was the prescribed treatment.

Thought?

Moderator Action: Please don't troll in RD threads. There's been ample warning in the thread not to engage in trolling, but your 'argument' here is simply aiming to rile another poster, not contribute to discussion.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Because wikipedia folks are a bunch of crapheads, and "actual" sources is an effing farce. I know, I have been there. Wikipedia is good for a few things, but if you cite it again, I will put you on the ignore list.

Discussion Point: going back to Lavoisier. Luiz says he was killed for being a scientist. West India Man says he was beheaded for being an aristocrat.

My argument: Lavoisier went to a Dutch Doctor complaining of a headache and the guillotine was the prescribed treatment.

Thought?
I think the level of equality that the Dutch have managed under a system that I assert is every bit as capitalist if not more than our own (they Dutch I share that thought with will protest this) makes you uncomfortable and thus you have latched on to this strange idea that the Dutch system of assisted suicide doesn't work as the Dutch people who want the option to die with some dignity as the suffer their final days in pain intended.

If you wanna see weird, the Belgians granted the victim of a botched gender reassignment surgery the right to an assisted suicide. That's still the victim requesting it.

That's my "thought".
 
I think the level of equality that the Dutch have managed under a system that I assert is every bit as capitalist if not more than our own (they Dutch I share that thought with will protest this) makes you uncomfortable and thus you have latched on to this strange idea that the Dutch system of assisted suicide doesn't work as the Dutch people who want the option to die with some dignity as the suffer their final days in pain intended.
I am a Red. Any system that puts profit before people is subject to my wrath. In the US, because of ACA, Aetna's profits are through the roof. I am part of a movement that actively fights such policy, while organizing medical professionals to provide free-of-charge care.

If you wanna see weird, the Belgians granted the victim of a botched gender reassignment surgery the right to an assisted suicide. That's still the victim requesting it.

That's my "thought".
I have no fight with what someone wants to do with their own life. That has never been my issue. My issue is the systemic problem -- and the profit-driven motive for institutionalizing assisted suicide. In Oregon, where it is legal, where hundreds of thousands Medicaid enrollees were cut off of Medicaid for lack of funding. (Oregon gives away billlions of USD to Intel, Nike, et al... So, the money is there.)

Pay to treat, before you pay to kill. That's all I am saying.
 
Who declared independence though? Workers of those nationalities, or the ruling classes?
That's an interesting question, but I doubt that the Red Army really asked when it invaded.

Characterization devoid of data.
Are you denying that the Red Army conquered most of the regions that dared to break away from the Russian Empire? Or that you tend to support anything with a red flag unquestioningly?

Also characterizations. China liberated Tibet from an obscurantist slave system posing as a sect of buddhism. The Dalai Lama's tutorr, Heinrich Harrar, was a Nazi.
Did they bother to ask the Tibetans what they wanted or did they just invade to "liberate" the Tibetans from themselves? It seems that if they were really interested in the well-being of the Tibetan people, they would have done something other than conquer the country. But instead, a larger and more powerful country invaded a smaller, weaker one and overthrew its government to "liberate" the people in a greedy imperialist move to gain territory and legitimacy. Iraq much?

And why should I China-bash?
Criticizing a country for its faults isn't necessarily bashing. But you are entirely uncritical of China. You refuse to question it, ever.

And why should I question my own beliefs? What kind of lily-livered, yellow-bellied, panty-waist alters his belief system on the basis of the lies of a hundred mouths of the bourgeoisie press? I have been a communist revolutionary for 22 years. I have withstood torture, jail, fires, harrassment for my work. I know whom I serve, I know my enemy.
Why should you question your beliefs? Is that a serious question?

Everyone should question their own beliefs constantly. That way, they can see if their beliefs are reasonable. Nobody's right all of the time, and so it's good to check if you're wrong.

By refusing to question yourself and your beliefs, you outright reject the possibility that you aren't right 100% of the time. You are so firm in your conviction that you and your idols are right that you are incapable of rationally thinking about yourself, and you refuse to try to understand other viewpoints. Intelligent discussions with you are literally impossible because you admit that you cannot be convinced that you might be wrong.

Interestingly, you're identical to religious fanatics. You have a religion (Communism), dogmatically follow a particular sect or denomination of it, worship gods (Marx, Engels, Castro, Mao, the Kim dynasty), read holy scripture (Little Red Book, Das Kapital, etc.), proselytize, and are completely convinced of your own moral and ideological superiority. It's impossible to convince the Westboro Baptist Church that it might not be right about everything, and so it is with you. And honestly, how can you spend any time doing charity/indoctrinating people when you spend hours and hours each day tooting your own horn and endlessly bragging about how you are a sexually active social organizer? Who you are has no bearing on the correctness of your arguments, and yet you lord your volunteering over everyone else as if to ask, "Do you know who I AM?!" Even the other communists like Cheezy and Traitorfish are getting frustrated with you.

I'm not necessarily opposed to communism- some of its basic tenets, inasmuch as anyone can agree on what they are, vaguely resemble my own beliefs. And Traitorfish does a good job of presenting his arguments rationally and explaining them. He knows perfectly well that he isn't infallible and takes that into account, leaving him open-minded and willing to be convinced if the evidence is strong enough. You, however, consider open-mindedness to be a sign of weakness and cowardice that must be purged. There's no reasoning with you once you've made up your mind. You arrive at your conclusions first and search for evidence later. You automatically reject any media you don't like (pretty much everything in the West) and automatically agree with anything from Communist or pseudo-Communist groups (Xinhua, China Daily).

So tell me, why should anyone discuss politics or society with you if you aren't willing to be convinced? I've about given up trying to communicate with you because you refuse to consider the possibility that you might not know everything already. You refuse to read Western media because it's biased, and then reject any sources other than Xinhua and China Daily. Those are official state propaganda organs. It is their job to portray their government in a positive light, but you don't read them critically. You never ask yourself, "What are the author's biases? How might they affect their argument?" It's like a customer taking a medicine corporation at its word that its products are completely safe and effective. Actually, no, it's worse, because there are at least some laws in place that penalize corporations from blatantly lying about their products like that, even if such laws are often ignored and broken.
 
Phrossack: It's a science, a social science, forged by theory applied at the point of practice. That is how my belief system is "questioned:" at the point of practice. It is more of a challenge, that is why I don't "question" it in the liberal sense. I am in contact with hundreds of people weekly through the course of my work, and everything I do, learn, say is for the goal of ending poverty, and its root. Period.

Let me rephrase this: Why should I be a liberal? An "open mind" does not mean accepting every lie that is told to me by mainstream media, or accepting others' positions as my own. Or even accepting another's position as my own.

What my gf characterizes me as is a "party militant." As is she. It is not religious zealoutry to take a position and hold it. Just because you do not believe it, does not make it wrong. Just because you learned it in school does not make it right. I had an oral cancer screening by a nationally renowned oral pathologist with 35 years of experience, who was training a crew from NYU Dental School, and one of the students said "That's not how they taught us in school," the oral pathologist said "Well, they're teaching you wrong."

I base my actions on principles.

Sorry about not posting the Tibet links... Too tired ;)

Maybe tonight.
 
Phrossack: It's a science, a social science, forged by theory applied at the point of practice. That is how my belief system is "questioned:" at the point of practice. It is more of a challenge, that is why I don't "question" it in the liberal sense. I am in contact with hundreds of people weekly through the course of my work, and everything I do, learn, say is for the goal of ending poverty, and its root. Period.

Let me rephrase this: Why should I be a liberal? An "open mind" does not mean accepting every lie that is told to me by mainstream media, or accepting others' positions as my own. Or even accepting another's position as my own.

What my gf characterizes me as is a "party militant." As is she. It is not religious zealoutry to take a position and hold it. Just because you do not believe it, does not make it wrong. Just because you learned it in school does not make it right. I had an oral cancer screening by a nationally renowned oral pathologist with 35 years of experience, who was training a crew from NYU Dental School, and one of the students said "That's not how they taught us in school," the oral pathologist said "Well, they're teaching you wrong."

I base my actions on principles.

Sorry about not posting the Tibet links... Too tired ;)

Maybe tonight.

I don't think you understood what I was saying, or that you addressed most of my points.

Don't bother posting the links, I'm too tired of this exercise in futility.

Bye.
 
Just because I did not address your points, does not mean I do not understand them. I don't have to address your points, this is not a court of law. This is not a classroom lecture.

But, in brief: Were I a lawyer and you a medical doctor, would you try to convince me of a legal course of action you read about in the New York Times?

Would I try to convince you that you should prescribe paxil versus prozac because of an article I read in Reader's Digest?

No. That said, I have a profession, I am a professional. I use the tools of my profession. I gather information that supports my profession and professional course of work.

Part of my (only) criticism of the left is that we spend a lot of time flappin' our gums to convince each other of our POVs and not enough time organizing to prove that in practice! The poor are still poor and need organization.

Flip to Tibet. I do not agree with invasion on principle. However, the PLA in 1950 only had, like, one tactic: military engagement. The uneducated and enslaved masses of Tibet had no opportunity under the Dalai Lama TO educate themselves. Liberation from the oppression gave them that.

Now, Tibet has a highly educated and prosperous population... And they kept their temples and beliefs... Just without the oppression. The 1959 uprising was coordinated by the CIA, who then whisked the Dalai Lama away to India. Now, why is the US soooo interested in Tibet of late? (ie, the 2008 unrest prior to the Beijing Olympics).

Water. And profit from water.

Tibet is the source of water for 43% of the population.

Remember how mainstream media gets their income...and who owns it. They answer to money... Not the truth. People say China is Capitalist. So what? (They are not. Deng Xiaping thought simply says "What matters the color of the cat as long as it catches mice?") Capitalists compete with each other and China is using that, plus its access to am educated, restless workforce, to its advantage. They step on toes and the owners of those toes fight back.

It is a battle of ideas. But the correctness of those ideas is proven at the point of practice.

I will let Cheezy, who is my friend IRL, answer any questions about the USSR because as much as I know, he studies it for a living.

Truth is, you would have a political conversation with me IRL because but for this anonymous game forum I do not use "socialism" and "communism" in conversation, and we wouldn't be talking about China and Tibet. I would be talking about a local political and economic contradiction... And what I was doing there talking to you about it in the first place.
 
Who declared independence though? Workers of those nationalities, or the ruling classes?

Oh my God, have you become of them? :(

Yeah, the Polish workers were dying to join the glorious Workers' Paradise! I wonder why they fought so tenaciously, often to their certain deaths, against the invading Red Army then. I wonder why the people of the Baltic States took every opportunity to seek independence. I wonder why in Ukraine the freaking Germans were initially welcomed as liberators during Barbarossa.

But there's no point in trying to make you think. I can tell by the simple words you use your brain is gone. You're on the cult.
 
And the first thing the Baltic States did after the break up of the USSR was exonerate the Nazis... :crazyeye:

Plus, it was a Lithuanian Captain who turned over the high-tech Red October submarine to the American imperialists.
:mad:
 
Oh my God, have you become of them? :(

Yeah, the Polish workers were dying to join the glorious Workers' Paradise! I wonder why they fought so tenaciously, often to their certain deaths, against the invading Red Army then. I wonder why the people of the Baltic States took every opportunity to seek independence. I wonder why in Ukraine the freaking Germans were initially welcomed as liberators during Barbarossa.

But there's no point in trying to make you think. I can tell by the simple words you use your brain is gone. You're on the cult.
I was under the impression that while most Poles wanted an independent Poland, the privatization and market liberalization was mainly pushed for by the political/economic elites with support for it tepid at best among the workers.
 
I was under the impression that while most Poles wanted an independent Poland, the privatization and market liberalization was mainly pushed for by the political/economic elites with support for it tepid at best among the workers.

"You're fooling yourself! We're living in a dictatorship; a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the members of the working class-"

"There you go bringing class into it.again"

"But, that's what it's all about!"


Link to video.
 
I was under the impression that while most Poles wanted an independent Poland, the privatization and market liberalization was mainly pushed for by the political/economic elites with support for it tepid at best among the workers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War

This is how the Polish masses welcomed the Soviet liberators in Lenin's time. I have no idea why you thought I was talking about Poland's emancipation from the Eastern Block much later. But in that case as well the message was clear: the vast majority of people, not just "the ruling classes", wanted the Soviet yoke to gtfo.
 
In 1917, Russia first gave Finland its independence; then Baltic States; "gave up" Poland (at Brest-Litovsk 1918) and effectively controlled about 1/10th of the land area that was later to become USSR.

I consider Russia's Bolshevik entry into the east and Asiatic lands (which the Tsars had annexed) 1919-1922 to be liberations to dismantle the old Tsarist autocracy and superstructure and create "Soviet Republics."

C.f. The remaining article I posted earlier by Lenin. For these nations, self-determination was made possible in this way. It also made the break-up of the USSR possible.

People also forget the American War Between the States (1861-1865) where the question of states rights and autonomy were settled on this continent through violence. Before this war, people referred to the United States in the plural ("The United States are..."); now, we refer to the United States in the singular ("The United States is.")
 
I say the United States are. Anyway, Clearly the Poles, Baltics et al. didn't consider the Soviet incursions as "liberations".
 
I say the United States are.

What about other South Americans? Is saying "are" the norm?

Anyway, Clearly the Poles, Baltics et al. didn't consider the Soviet incursions as "liberations".

Of course not. As you point out... but the Baltics were not part of USSR until after Molotov-Von Ribbentrop pact when the Soviets went in to deny Nazi Germany a back door into Russia.

Funny how Churchill characterized the 1939 Russian advance into Poland as dealing the first defeat to Hitler...
 
What about other South Americans? Is saying "are" the norm?
At least in Portuguese, yes. Os Estados Unidos são. The singular form é in this case would indicate illiteracy.

Of course not. As you point out... but the Baltics were not part of USSR until after Molotov-Von Ribbentrop pact when the Soviets went in to deny Nazi Germany a back door into Russia.

Funny how Churchill characterized the 1939 Russian advance into Poland as dealing the first defeat to Hitler...

Yeah Churchill didn't know of the Secret Protocols back then, and even if he did, he would still try to spin it in a way to make it look like a blow to Germany, when it was nothing of the sort.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War

This is how the Polish masses welcomed the Soviet liberators in Lenin's time. I have no idea why you thought I was talking about Poland's emancipation from the Eastern Block much later.
Considering how unsettled the borders were in Interwar Eastern Europe and the number of wars Poland fought with all of its neighbors I think it is less a matter of Poles not liking the Soviets and more a matter of Poles wanting an independent state.
Poland and Lithuania weren't even on speaking terms for much of the Interwar period, for what its worth.
But in that case as well the message was clear: the vast majority of people, not just "the ruling classes", wanted the Soviet yoke to gtfo.
Which is what I said, not really sure why that needed repeating unless you were trying to engage in the most aggressive agreement I've seen yet.
(And considering I live in the land of passive-aggressive people, I've seen some pretty impressive examples.)
 
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