The Offtopicgrad Soviet: A Place to Discuss All Things Red

Making sure one third of our kids are not starving seems pretty important to me. More important than adhering to cretinous and discredited ideologies such as communism.
The goal is not to adhere "to cretinous and discredited ideologies such as communism" in spite of your insistence on using anachronistic cold war platitudes... The DPRK are obviously trying to feed those children.

But one in four going hungry in the US, billions of USD cuts in food stamps... Who's really trying to feed people?
 
One in four are not hungry in the US. That's a made up assertion.
 
Making sure one third of our kids are not starving seems pretty important to me. More important than adhering to cretinous and discredited ideologies such as communism.

Or capitalism?

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/09/04/201210/millions-still-struggle-with-hunger.html

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/us_hunger_facts.htm

http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-us/key-statistics-graphics.aspx

Some 17.6 million U.S. households had trouble feeding their family members at times last year as “food insecurity” remained at near-record levels for the fifth straight year, according to a government report released Wednesday.

More than one-third of these households – 7 million – suffered from “very low food security,” in which usual eating patterns were disrupted and consumption was reduced because of a lack of money and access to food.

In all, 49 million Americans didn’t know where their next meals would come from at some point in 2012, the U.S. Department of Agriculture reported.

http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?post=e9caf453-75ca-4ad6-ae9d-9b991cd6702f

Enrollment in SNAP has surged 70% since 2008, reaching a record 47.8 million Americans in December. Even more shocking, that means 15% of the country receives the benefits, nearly double the rate as in 1975, when the U.S. suffered from soaring inflation, a recession and an oil crisis.

Indeed, glorious capitalism provides for all in the USA...who can afford it. As the ranks of both the impoverished and the hungry grow, the rich who run our country seek to jettison more and more of the responsibility for their fate.
 
Or capitalism?

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/09/04/201210/millions-still-struggle-with-hunger.html

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/us_hunger_facts.htm

http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/food-security-in-the-us/key-statistics-graphics.aspx



http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?post=e9caf453-75ca-4ad6-ae9d-9b991cd6702f



Indeed, glorious capitalism provides for all in the USA...who can afford it. As the ranks of both the impoverished and the hungry grow, the rich who run our country seek to jettison more and more of the responsibility for their fate.

The difference between the "dictatorship of the bourgeoisie" US and glorious workers' paradise: in the US a small percentage of households has trouble paying for food themselves and require government or private aid, but nobody is starving. In North Korea one in three kids are stunted due to starvation.

I'll take my chances with the "capitalist oppressors", thank you very much.

BTW, the average American makes 105 times more than the average North Korean.

And people wonder why the working class rejects communism so vehemently...
 
The difference between the "dictatorship of the bourgeoisie" US and glorious workers' paradise: in the US a small percentage of households has trouble paying for food themselves and require government or private aid, but nobody is starving. In North Korea one in three kids are stunted due to starvation.

I'll take my chances with the "capitalist oppressors", thank you very much.

I'm really done with your lying, in particular, your invented positions for people. I've made my skeptical approach toward North Korea quite clear, don't attribute to me a position I've never held. And no communist has ever used the word "workers' paradise."

It's clearly not a "tiny percentage," it's 1 in 6 households who have no idea where their next meal will come from. Have you ever lived like that under glorious capitalism, Luiz? Because I have. Skipping meals isn't fun. And yes, that is a form of starvation. No, there aren't many people in my country starving, because they have garbage bins to pick through and food donations to get canned goods from. Oh my, isn't that such a glorious and secure life they lead under capitalism! Such dignity, having to subsist on handouts and waste because your boss is too stingy to pay you enough to survive on!

Spare me the imminent lecture about the fate of North Korean children. I never said it was rosy there, even an actual defender of DPRK like RT never said things were great there, nor downplayed the ravishings of hunger in DPRK. Read about the Arduous March, and just why North Korea faces the challenges it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduous_March
 
BTW, the average American makes 105 times more than the average North Korean.

How do you take yourself seriously? The average American makes so much money because capitalists pay the Third World so much less. There are 40 million workers in the Philippines who make less than $2 a day. Where's you smartassed defense of that, Luiz? That's capitalism at work, moving the worst of its crimes overseas where you can pretend it doesn't exist. The American worker is a tiny minority of the world capitalist workforce, effectively its middle class, and he benefits from being so close to the Big Dogs with all the money and power. But is he really better off? You understand that workers have zero control over prices, right? So we may get paid more, but we are left with no money just the same, because prices are so high for everything from food to rent. This is just so commonsense that I'm honestly embarrassed that I have to type it out and explain it to someone, most of all someone who brags about how educated he is compared to all us idiot leftists. But then I guess you have no idea what insecurity of any kind is, so it takes people who live in the Real World to educate you about it.
 
I'm really done with your lying, in particular, your invented positions for people. I've made my skeptical approach toward North Korea quite clear, don't attribute to me a position I've never held. And no communist has ever used the word "workers' paradise."

It's clearly not a "tiny percentage," it's 1 in 6 households who have no idea where their next meal will come from. Have you ever lived like that under glorious capitalism, Luiz? Because I have. Skipping meals isn't fun. And yes, that is a form of starvation. No, there aren't many people in my country starving, because they have garbage bins to pick through and food donations to get canned goods from. Oh my, isn't that such a glorious and secure life they lead under capitalism! Such dignity, having to subsist on handouts and waste because your boss is too stingy to pay you enough to survive on!

Spare me the imminent lecture about the fate of North Korean children. I never said it was rosy there, even an actual defender of DPRK like RT never said things were great there, nor downplayed the ravishings of hunger in DPRK. Read about the Arduous March, and just why North Korea faces the challenges it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduous_March
Lying? Inventing positions for people?
RT has been vigorously defending NK, the worst regime on the planet. A country where 1/3 of the kids are stunted due to starvation. A country where violent racism and xenophobia are the state religion. A country where people are sent to concentration camps, tortured and rape for being born in the wrong family. A country whose depravity is hard to even describe.

Your position is equally disgusting. You relativize the sheer horror of North Korea by comparing it to one of the richest and most prosperous countries in the world, where nobody is starving. 1 in 6 households in the US are NOT living off garbage bins; who's lying now? It's a bad thing to not have enough to pay for your food yourself, but being on food stamps and actually starving are two very different things. In Europe and elsewhere a lot of people depend on welfare to buy food as well...

The US does not beg and blackmail foreign countries into send food aid. The US is not a nation of dwarfs whose development is stunted by lack of food. Nobody dies here because they're no eating. To compare the two is not to be stupid - because nobody is that stupid -it is to be a malevolent liar, like you.

How do you take yourself seriously? The average American makes so much money because capitalists pay the Third World so much less. There are 40 million workers in the Philippines who make less than $2 a day. Where's you smartassed defense of that, Luiz? That's capitalism at work, moving the worst of its crimes overseas where you can pretend it doesn't exist. The American worker is a tiny minority of the world capitalist workforce, effectively its middle class, and he benefits from being so close to the Big Dogs with all the money and power. But is he really better off? You understand that workers have zero control over prices, right? So we may get paid more, but we are left with no money just the same, because prices are so high for everything from food to rent. This is just so commonsense that I'm honestly embarrassed that I have to type it out and explain it to someone, most of all someone who brags about how educated he is compared to all us idiot leftists. But then I guess you have no idea what insecurity of any kind is, so it takes people who live in the Real World to educate you about it.
You're so spoiled and ignorant it's funny... you ask if the American worker is actually better off? Good God, how out of touch can one be??? The American worker can afford a nice home, and a car, and plenty of food (far more than he should eat, actually)... The American worker has plenty of leisure hours, travels on the weekend, go fishing and hunting and BBQing... It takes a colossal moron to compare that to the living nightmare that is life in a place like North Korea!
Prices in the US are fairly low compared to most other places, BTW (not that you would know! You don't know much, do you?). Food is super cheap in the US, as is gas and electricity. That's why living standards in the US are almost unparalleled (the US is #3 in the Human Development Index, only behind Norway and Australia).

It's not a matter that things "aren't rosy" in North Korea. It's a matter that North Korea is hell. It's a dystopia. It's a land of concentration camps and starving dwarfs, brainwashed by a murderous and violently racist ideology. To say that "is not rosy" is not euphemism, it is a lie.

$2 a day, BTW, is more than what the average North Korean makes. And another BTW, the average Filipino makes almost 6 times as much as the average North Korean. Again, I'll take my chances with the Capitalist oppressors, they seem to treat the workers far, far better.
 
Lying? Inventing positions for people?

Yeah. Just like you do in this post. I'm not even going to respond to all of what's wrong with it, because it doesn't deserve the time of day.

1 in 6 households in the US are NOT living off garbage bins; who's lying now?

I didn't say 1 in 6 households were, I said that 1 in 6 households is food insecure, and that people don't starve in the US because they have trashcans to pick through. Don't tell me what I've seen with my own eyes: we used to set aside "waste" food that was edible but about to be discarded, so that the hungry who came around to the dumpsters wouldn't have to fish through them trying to find something to eat.


The US does not beg and blackmail foreign countries into send food aid. The US is not a nation of dwarfs whose development is stunted by lack of food. Nobody dies here because they're no eating. To compare the two is not to be stupid - because nobody is that stupid -it is to be a malevolent liar, like you.

You still haven't shown where I have lied, you've invented lies and attributed them to me.


You're so spoiled it's funny... you ask if the American worker is actually better off? Good God, how out of touch can one be??? The American worker can afford a nice home, and a car, and plenty of food (far more than he should eat, actually)... The American worker has plenty of leisure hours, travels on the weekend, go fishing and hunting and BBQing... It takes a colossal moron to compare that to the living nightmare that is life in a place like North Korea!

I'm not spoiled, you're just clueless. Now go lie down, now that you've gotten your impulsive "shouting at the commies" out of your system for the day.
 
Yeah. Just like you do in this post. I'm not even going to respond to all of what's wrong with it, because it doesn't deserve the time of day.
Yeah I'm sure your day has more important commitments like organizing the impending global communist revolution.

I didn't say 1 in 6 households were, I said that 1 in 6 households is food insecure, and that people don't starve in the US because they have trashcans to pick through. Don't tell me what I've seen with my own eyes: we used to set aside "waste" food that was edible but about to be discarded, so that the hungry who came around to the dumpsters wouldn't have to fish through them trying to find something to eat.
Food insecurity just means not being able to buy your own food. In the US those who can't afford their own food are still fed through other means, be them public welfare or private charity. That may not be ideal, but it is how it is even in Scandinavia. And while not ideal, it sure beats a country where 1/3 of the kids are actually starving. Proof being that unlike NK, the US is not a land of malnourished dwarfs.

You still haven't shown where I have lied, you've invented lies and attributed them to me.
Your statements were analogous to lies to say the least. Asking if the American worker is really better off than a third world one is a rhetorical lie. Comparing the situation of food insecurity in the US to actual starvation in NK is a lie for all intents and purposes as well.

I'm not spoiled, you're just clueless. Now go lie down, now that you've gotten your impulsive "shouting at the commies" out of your system for the day.

You are ignorant, spoiled and clueless. I'll repeat the last part of my post because it's worth repeating:

me said:
You're so spoiled and ignorant it's funny... you ask if the American worker is actually better off? Good God, how out of touch can one be??? The American worker can afford a nice home, and a car, and plenty of food (far more than he should eat, actually)... The American worker has plenty of leisure hours, travels on the weekend, go fishing and hunting and BBQing... It takes a colossal moron to compare that to the living nightmare that is life in a place like North Korea!
Prices in the US are fairly low compared to most other places, BTW (not that you would know! You don't know much, do you?). Food is super cheap in the US, as is gas and electricity. That's why living standards in the US are almost unparalleled (the US is #3 in the Human Development Index, only behind Norway and Australia).

It's not a matter that things "aren't rosy" in North Korea. It's a matter that North Korea is hell. It's a dystopia. It's a land of concentration camps and starving dwarfs, brainwashed by a murderous and violently racist ideology. To say that "is not rosy" is not euphemism, it is a lie.

$2 a day, BTW, is more than what the average North Korean makes. And another BTW, the average Filipino makes almost 6 times as much as the average North Korean. Again, I'll take my chances with the Capitalist oppressors, they seem to treat the workers far, far better.

You know a communist teenager may be considered kind of cute (not by me, but taste is subjective). But for a man past his 20's to still call himself a communist is just pathetic.

Grow up, get a real job, be productive. Don't waste your life "organizing and agitating" for a revolution that will never happen because nobody wants it. Go live.
 
My own conclusions are that state planning of the economy has failed miserably as Mises predicted 90 years ago. See the above picture/any reasonable analysis of the two Koreas.
Yeah, it's not even clear to me why Marxists ("Marxists") should find this claim objectionable. So the state isn't particularly good at administering a capitalist economy, so what? Is that really what they're aiming for?
 
My own conclusions are that state planning of the economy has failed miserably as Mises predicted 90 years ago. See the above picture/any reasonable analysis of the two Koreas.

I don't know. I guess it depends upon what is meant by "state planning". I think there is quite a bit of "state planning" in our current society. The Fed closely monitors the interest rates, adjusts the money supply as needed and other precautions against what is said to be the danger of economic collapse. They bail out Wall Street with our tax money when the rich risk economic insecurity. I think a case can be made that we're more of a "nanny state" for the rich in many ways. Where I work I've seen quite a bit of the underclass and what they earn. Believe me, from what I've seen they didn't get "bailed out" in 2008. They have to scrape and claw at what they can get. I don't know if they are as bad off as their average counterparts in the DPRK or not. I suppose not much can beat that condition.

Check out the PBS video in the link below. If the report is true, the Federal Reserve is apparently refusing to disclose what it has or is being done with over 12 trillion in tax payer money that was sort of an un reported part of the bailout. Basically their argument seems to be that it would be economically harmful for we the people to know what is being done with our money. Note, they don't seem to be denying that the money is being spent, just that we shouldn't know what on. So we're supposed to simply trust that the same people who directly spent 700 billion handing out disaster relief to Wall Street know what they are doing.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/economy/the-true-cost-of-the-bank-bailout/3309/

I would think there will always be some degree of state intervention in the economy. That's kind of a given I would think. Once we accept that, it seems to me that better state planning would involve spreading the money around to the needy a bit more instead of lumping it all in a relatively few individual bank accounts. But bailing out the average person would be painfully objectionable and bailing out the wealthy is of course not quite as bad. :dunno:
 
As a point of fact, Gary, there is a great deal of US and EU government intervention. But, because it supports the status quo, MSM does not cover that aspect of it, and doesn't present it as propping up a moribund system

Japan's government, as a point of fact, strictly regulates its economy, as well.
 
Moderator Action: Recently in this thread, posts by Jeleen and Luiz have raised the general level of incivility. Please try to keep the discussion civil and leave your personal passions out of your posts. Please don't let things get out of hand. If you cannot contribute good content in a friendly manner, don't post. Thanks.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
As a point of fact, Gary, there is a great deal of US and EU government intervention. But, because it supports the status quo, MSM does not cover that aspect of it, and doesn't present it as propping up a moribund system

Japan's government, as a point of fact, strictly regulates its economy, as well.

EU government intervention? Could you elaborate?
 
EU government intervention? Could you elaborate?
I am referring to governments that are EU members, versus Russia...
 
20140502.png
 
No no no, Hygro... That comic isn't remotely comparable to the labor theory of value. This comic assumes there is an oppressor/ oppressed relationship, and that only Marx is doing the work. In normal, consensual relationships, both partners are responsible for the outcome, unless, this is Marx as a male prostitute and woman in this comic is not Jenny von Westphalen.

Any Red worth his salt does not unilaterally equate quantity of work hours to quantity and quality of work output. It is simply the value labor adds to a commodity to make it into a saleable/ consumable commodity. If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. But workers should be able to take pride in their work product. I do.

Lenin was meeting with some workers in a shoe factory. One worker complained of the managers: "They will reprimand you for setting a heel incorrectly!"

Lenin replied "You should be reprimanded for setting a heel incorrectly!"
(laughter from the workers).
 
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