The Palestinian civil war begins officially in about a month

[Bozo Erectus]

Garret, many of them were foreign in 1948. None of them are foreign today. Its today we have to deal with.

 

[Sidhe]

Didn't say anything about conquering Palestine. Palestine's been conquered since the 1960's anyway. I said defeating Hamas. Hamas is not going to be deposed democratically. In case you haven't noticed, they're not exactly reasonable people who will go away if made unwelcome. Hamas has made it clear that they are at war with Israel, so by their own choice, there is only one way for them to be defeated.

If your an American citizen the peaceful alternatives are never contemplated, is that what your saying? and Hamas has no way on Earth to defeat Israel, it is merely posturing, I'd like you to prove that Hamas plans to forgo the democratic process and become a dictatorship as well?

The best way to defeat terrorism is not to fight? If Israel overran Palestines territories and kicked Hamas out or anihilated them then not only would the UN consider this a breaking of treaty but it would no doubt force the rest of the world to place sanctions on Israel for said offence, to hawks like you though the only resolution to war is not peace but destruction, or that at least is what you seem to be saying.

I suspect the various Arab terrorist organisations based in Egypt and wherever? Would begin a campaign against Israel too. This sort of reasoning is devoid of an understanding of past Israeli/Palestine history IMO. Chop of the head and two heads grow, chop off an arm and three arms grow, and so it excalates, check out the history of the IRA when Britain tried to eradicate as many IRA terrorsits as it possibly could, 3 years later the IRA's numbers had tripled, this is suicidal thinking IMO.

 

[Leha]

I didnt see this when you first posted it.

Why, Leha? What is Olmert hoping to accomplish with this? Why should Israel publicly support a Palestinian faction, when there are so many others in the world who are ready to aid them? Explain the logic to me, because frankly, I dont see it. Why did Sharon have to pick such a sensitve moment to keel over (well I guess its been one sensitive moment after another since 1948)

edit: unless Olmert is doing what I outlined earlier, which is to insure that a discredited Palestinian leadership emerges from the current internecine strife (discredited because its tainted through aid from the 'zionist entity') But then, why would Abbas stupidly accept the aid? I know that Abbas isnt a stupid man.

Bozo, I appreciate your moral support of Israel

However we have to find some decision to this nightmare to end.
And this is indeed nightmare. Wise Egyptians took back Sinai but refused to take Gaza, and now we are stuck with this Hamastan. There are two options:

1. Kill 'em all.

2. Find someone sane in this insanity, who could at least try to lead his people to peace.

Since we live in 21st centuri and we are not "bloody zionist killers" as some try to picture us, second option is obvious. Though some fear that giving weapons to Abbas will turn those weapons aginst us,as it was with Arafat, I think there is rational grain here.

1. It could make his confrontation with Hamas more deep, and eventually he will overthrow them, I think.

2. It is a sing of our trust. Without trust it is hard to find allies.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Bozo, I appreciate your moral support of Israel

However we have to find some decision to this nightmare to end.
And this is indeed nightmare. Wise Egyptians took back Sinai but refused to take Gaza, and now we are stuck with this Hamastan. There are two options:

1. Kill 'em all.

2. Find someone sane in this insanity, who could at least try to lead his people to peace.

Since we live in 21st centuri and we are not "bloody zionist killers" as some try to picture us, second option is obvious. Though some fear that giving weapons to Abbas will turn those weapons aginst us,as it was with Arafat, I think there is rational grain here.

1. It could make his confrontation with Hamas more deep, and eventually he will overthrow them, I think.

2. It is a sing of our trust. Without trust it is hard to find allies.

I dont know what to say. Maybe it would be best if I said nothing, for a change. Leha, do you believe, and do many of your fellow Israelis believe, that peace with the Palestinians is possible, one day?

BTW:

Bozo, I appreciate your moral support of Israel

To paraphrase: any civilized man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I didnt see this when you first posted it.

Why, Leha? What is Olmert hoping to accomplish with this? Why should Israel publicly support a Palestinian faction, when there are so many others in the world who are ready to aid them? Explain the logic to me, because frankly, I dont see it. Why did Sharon have to pick such a sensitve moment to keel over (well I guess its been one sensitive moment after another since 1948)

edit: unless Olmert is doing what I outlined earlier, which is to insure that a discredited Palestinian leadership emerges from the current internecine strife (discredited because its tainted through aid from the 'zionist entity') But then, why would Abbas stupidly accept the aid? I know that Abbas isnt a stupid man.

Olmert must know something we don't -- that Fatah is so hopelessly feeble compared to Hamas that it would capitulate in an instant without help. In that case, you'd have the PA run by Hamas, as strong as ever, and a terrorist state bent on Israel's destruction right in its backyard.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Color me crazy, but Ive always thought that a Hamas Palestinian Authority is a great thing for Israel. No more phoney negotiations, and Israel is free to act unilaterally. That seems to be too bold for Olmert though, unfortunately.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

If your an American citizen the peaceful alternatives are never contemplated, is that what your saying? and Hamas has no way on Earth to defeat Israel, it is merely posturing, I'd like you to prove that Hamas plans to forgo the democratic process and become a dictatorship as well?

The peaceful alternatives were begun in 1993 when the Dayton Accords were signed between the PLO and Israel. Had that process continued as promised, none of this would happen.

Unfortunately, factions within the Palestinian movement (including some parties in Fatah) have refused to acknowledge peace with Israel at any cost, on principle alone. You haven't also noticed how they have deliberately tried to sabotage the peace process, and that Arafat, while living, had deliberately cast a blind eye on the activities of some in his own party, such as Al Aqsa Martyrs, in their activities. In doing so, he gave them license to continue. I would also note that for several years, between 1993 and 2000, there was peace in the region. Only when Arafat was offered a final agreement, and when Palestine would've been fully established with permanent borders, did he suddenly remove himself from the process. Apparently, he was afraid that once the "liberation" was successful, he would've been eclipsed.

So this peace process has been given a chance for a long time. You demonstrate your ignorance by suggesting it's never happened.

And it doesn't matter whether Hamas's goals are unrealistic. Al Qaeda's goals of a worldwide jihad and re-establishment of a caliphate are unrealistic, but they still fight. Religion's funny like that. Hamas has been fighting Israel through terrorist attacks for years, so they have been true to their word. Their mission statement says that Israel should be destroyed, and they have never waivered from that.

It doesn't matter whether Hamas plans to continue to be democratic or not. Its aim is still the destruction of Israel. The Weimer Republic was a democracy too, and its people democratically elected the Nazis into power.

The best way to defeat terrorism is not to fight? If Israel overran Palestines territories and kicked Hamas out or anihilated them then not only would the UN consider this a breaking of treaty but it would no doubt force the rest of the world to place sanctions on Israel for said offence, to hawks like you though the only resolution to war is not peace but destruction, or that at least is what you seem to be saying.

Why fight a war on your own when there's someone to do it for you? You obviously have no appreciation for Machiavelli.

I suspect the various Arab terrorist organisations based in Egypt and wherever? Would begin a campaign against Israel too. This sort of reasoning is devoid of an understanding of past Israeli/Palestine history IMO. Chop of the head and two heads grow, chop off an arm and three arms grow, and so it excalates, check out the history of the IRA when Britain tried to eradicate as many IRA terrorsits as it possibly could, 3 years later the IRA's numbers had tripled, this is suicidal thinking IMO.

If there was a legit government running things in Palestine, it would be hard for an outside organization to claim terrorist attacks in its name. It would be more like attacking the Palestinian government than Israel. In any case, it's unlikely. The trend since 1993 is a decrease in operational terrorist organizations in Palestine. That's why you only see Hamas mentioned nowadays, but there used to be so many others.

You seem to think terrorism is all the same, but it's not. There's no political connection to the IRA, Hamas, and Al-Qaeda. They are radically different organizations. When was the last time you heard of al Qaeda supporting Hamas in some way? Or even being involved in Palestine at all? Just goes to show you that al Qaeda doesn't give a damn about actual liberation movements (even misguided ones like Hamas) and is only interested in its own agenda.

 

[Sidhe]

Honestly nice try but why you think war is the solution to terrorism is beyond my comprehension, show me how slaughter decreases the reign of terror and I'll agree? Never will never has, peace process is better than throwing oil on an already falmmable situation, to me this is common sense. You honestly believe the peace process has achieved nothing? Show me more?

Machieveli never saw terrorism in his lifetime, so it's an inapropriate anology, things were more clear cut then, you had an enemy you could manipulate and allies such as the "US" you could also, but now it's all abundently clear when you lie and mislead, so your left with nothing more than distrust.

Luckily the Israelis don't believe the anihilation or destruction of Palestine is in any way going to solve the situation, at least those who aren't polarised, let's see what happens if anything you suggest comes to pass, then I'll eat my hat my trousers and my coat and follow it up with logic for dessert. War for peace, yeah right? This is the twenty first century you know?

 

[GarretSidzaka]

...The best way to defeat terrorism is not to fight? If Israel overran Palestines territories and kicked Hamas out or anihilated them then not only would the UN consider this a breaking of treaty but it would no doubt force the rest of the world to place sanctions on Israel for said offence, to hawks like you though the only resolution to war is not peace but destruction, or that at least is what you seem to be saying...

Comeon now, we know for certain that the UN can't touch Israel. The US would not let them and that is a damn fact. The US gov't has veto power, and if the UN were going to impose sanctions, really, they would have done it already for the atrocities, assassinations and human rights violations.

BTW: an assassination committed with missiles from a chopper or jet is still an assassination.

Don't think I'm not wishing for peace in Israel and Palestine. But the UN is a hot airbag. The only thing the UN is good for is giving justification for wars. (ie Kosovo, which i participated in)

 

[Leha]

I dont know what to say. Maybe it would be best if I said nothing, for a change. Leha, do you believe, and do many of your fellow Israelis believe, that peace with the Palestinians is possible, one day?

Bozo, you didn't undestand
We just have no choice but to find SOME peace solution.Otherwise the only solution left is fight till one of us is exterminated .It isn't matter of belief.

 

[aneeshm]

Barbarian terrorists killing each other - I'm for it ! The less terrorist scum this Earth has the better .

I say this knowing that the first to die in the fighting will be the radicals .

 

[Princeps]

Barbarian terrorists killing each other - I'm for it ! The less terrorist scum this Earth has the better .

I say this knowing that the first to die in the fighting will be the radicals .

Well, Palestinian fighters are hardly "uncivilized scum", but rather people who are tired of the constant Israeli oppression. They are warriors in my opinion, and their fight is fully justified. I doubt that there are radicals, you don't need radicals, all you need is more killed family members, more ruined lives and poverty, and you'll have "terrorism".

 

[Leha]

Well, Palestinian fighters are hardly "uncivilized scum", but rather people who are tired of the constant Israeli oppression. They are warriors in my opinion, and their fight is fully justified. I doubt that there are radicals, you don't need radicals, all you need is more killed family members, more ruined lives and poverty, and you'll have "terrorism".

Then may be you can explain how Israelis visited freely in Gaza in 1970's, had great relationships there, bought their goods and there were no "oppressed freedom fighters"?

 

[Princeps]

Then may be you can explain how Israelis visited freely in Gaza in 1970's, had great relationships there, bought their goods and there were no "oppressed freedom fighters"?

Can you explain how 75 per sent of occupied Palestinians live in poverty? I think it's more relevant than some Israelis visiting Gaza back in the seventies...

 

[Leha]

Can you explain how 75 per sent of occupied Palestinians live in poverty? I think it's more relevant than some Israelis visiting Gaza back in the seventies...

I can, they spend all the money on weaponry and suicide bombers. By the way, back in seventies they thrived.

 

[Princeps]

No, I think it has more to do with the economical isolation Israel imposes on them. As long as Israel keeps killing their people, forces them to live in poverty there'll be Palestinians willing to bomb Israel. The fact that there are Israeli soldiers patrolling their streets, telling them what to do in their own land, is an insult.

 

[soul_warrior]

BTW: an assassination committed with missiles from a chopper or jet is still an assassination.

well, as some call the philistines Freedom fighters, warriors, soldiers and whatnot,
i guess that being of military persuasions its a risky job, and as such should atleast insure themselves against Job Related Accidents?
if you attack a state, declare WAR on it, and refuse to negotiate, i expect it to be quite fair to fight back.
not our fault we got the bomb

Well, Palestinian fighters are hardly "uncivilized scum", but rather people who are tired of the constant Israeli oppression. They are warriors in my opinion, and their fight is fully justified. I doubt that there are radicals, you don't need radicals, all you need is more killed family members, more ruined lives and poverty, and you'll have "terrorism".

Then may be you can explain how Israelis visited freely in Gaza in 1970's, had great relationships there, bought their goods and there were no "oppressed freedom fighters"?

easy.
if the population is a healthy, working, well fed crowd, it will be too busy LIVING to worry about killing the zionist, or dying for Allah.

i truly believe we can have peace here someday.
just as soon as the first generation terrorists are all done for, and thier heirs realise that israel is here to stay.

it would also help if the INTERNAL WAR OF ISLAM wasnt fought on WESTERN LANDS.


Ohh, and BTW, since HAMAS tried to ASSASINATE Riffat Culab (a Fatah chief of counter security), i believe the date has been officlally pushed forward.

may god have mercy on their souls

 

[Leha]

No, I think it has more to do with the economical isolation Israel imposes on them. As long as Israel keeps killing their people, forces them to live in poverty there'll be Palestinians willing to bomb Israel. The fact that there are Israeli soldiers patrolling their streets, telling them what to do in their own land, is an insult.

As long as they teach their children to kill jews, send suicide bombers, bomb israeli cities with projectile missiles and support Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Brigades Al-Aqsa, they will be isolated, and terrorists will be searched and killed. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[civaddict098]

Its the palistinians fault. They could have had a state, and it would have been their land, but they ****ed it up and attacked Israel within 24 hours of their founding, there were two states untill the arabs attacked Israel.

 

[Princeps]

As long as they teach their children to kill jews, send suicide bombers, bomb israeli cities with projectile missiles and support Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Brigades Al-Aqsa, they will be isolated, and terrorists will be searched and killed. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Oh, so they cannot fight, is that it? They are not allowed to fight for themselves just because they are dubbed as terrorists?

First, a blantantly unfair "deal" is made. Israel is given half of Palestinian land where Muslims have lived for over a thousand years. It is their home. Then Israel comes, and instead of living in the land that was given to them, they conquer more. They violate their independance and right of self-rule, they humiliate the Palestinians, they steal their lands, bulldoze their infrastructure, they kill their families and ruin their economy and force them to live in poverty just because of few bomb strikes? Oh, please.

Its the palistinians fault. They could have had a state, and it would have been their land, but they ****ed it up and attacked Israel within 24 hours of their founding, there were two states untill the arabs attacked Israel.

No, I think its the fault of the British, they played with peoples like child plays with toys. Be honest, would you accept a deal where half of your land is given to another, entirely strange people and you get nothing in return? I think the Arab attack on Israel, 24 hours after its foundation was fully justified and obvious reaction.