The Poll on Civ BE

[Mikee]

The Poll is certainly sending a message to the game developers that we are not happy!
Whilst the input and support from CIV fanatics is great and a necessary requirement in supporting the problem solving of issues with BE or any game. In this rush to solve problems do not lose sight of the fact that the problems and criticism of this Civ BE game iteration are as a result of the game producers taking deliberate decisions regarding its content and quality or lack of.
I personally feel “used” by this game iteration as my expectations based on past experience with the development of the CIV Series has always been exceptionally good and the games have always provided a sense of appreciation for the games developers striving for excellence. I certainly cannot say that for this one (BE).
If the game is to become exceptional then the good along with the legitimate bad criticism must be fully recognised and publicised and taken notice of. Otherwise what is being publicised is not the true account of the plethora of views and opinions that are seeking publicity. It is simply a love in by a specific group and not representative of all of the Civ Gaming community’s views and opinions.
It is usually a good thing to also provide solutions along with the criticism however many gamers will be so disappointed that they will simply write the issue off and move on without recording their views and opinions. The moderators must realise that silence does not necessarily imply satisfaction although in some cases it will.
It is only via rigorous and robust debate that progress and improvement can be realised.
The moderators are to be applauded for allowing free debate to occur which will only have the result of contributing to making this game series exceptionally great in so many categories once again. Tough love is what we are dispensing directed at the ongoing survival of the Civilisation Games Series.

 

[Breezin]

You know there's something I wonder about.

Apparently, Firaxis uses a testing group called Frankenstein who I understand are quite good.

What I don't understand is how so many issues (especially renewal of trade routes for me) failed to get fixed. Many of the issues seem minor.

I played the game at Firaxicon but the release version seems no different than the one I played. Did anything get fixed in those subsequent 3 weeks? Surely, the trade route issue couldn't have been missed. It's one of the biggest complaints from the community so I can't see how this wasn't put at the top of the list of things to address before release.

 

[Kutuzov]

The Poll is certainly sending a message to the game developers that we are not happy!

I have a sneaking suspicion that they really have already figured this one out

If the game is to become exceptional then the good along with the legitimate bad criticism must be fully recognised and publicised and taken notice of

It is. Haven't you read the developers' thread linked below? Why would you think otherwise other than 'I don't want to believe'? Honestly, there's almost nothing but bad criticism on these boards. There's even a thread complaining about being asked if you are sure about exiting your game without saving.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=539216

There's precious little that's positive here and when someone does post something positive, those who are not so happy with the game feel compelled to drown out their opinion with their frustration. Probably because they are frightened that Positivity that goes 'unchallenged' on these boards might somehow mislead the developers into thinking that we are happy and that there is no further need for them to finish their game. That's a rather Medieval outlook.

I certainly cannot say that for this one (BE).

So, they stuck with both Civ IV and V after release and fixed both those games up in spite of the state of the games at their launch but you are willing to ignore this in favour of a negative, gloomy, and frankly unsupported view that they won't? This is a different way of not learning the lessons that history teaches us. Ignore the fact that they did not do this in the past, that they DID support their games. They're not going to support this one? Why do you think they won't? How can you support that statement?

Otherwise what is being publicised is not the true account of the plethora of views and opinions that are seeking publicity.

I guess here that you are speaking about the reviews that were published by reviewers before release? That's fair enough if it is but I would strongly disagree with you if you are talking about forum feedback. In fact, I would say that the 'true view' is most certainly not on display on these boards right now. It's the 'angry view' that is on display here. We are certainly not all angry.

It is simply a love in by a specific group and not representative of all of the Civ Gaming community’s views and opinions.

I really resent the implication that if you like this game that somehow you are not helping the developers, that you are actually doing them a dis-service in not throwing abuse at them and ridiculing their design decisions, insulting their testing team, etc. Or condoning this behavior in others on these boards which is just as bad.

Tough love is what we are dispensing directed at the ongoing survival of the Civilisation Games Series

Tough love?! OMG! How many horrors have been perpetrated in history with tough love in the perpetrators' hearts. Very Dominican. I will say nothing more.

Anyway, I'm aware that I'm in a tiny minority on these boards and that my reasonable tone is not welcome here. I don't think the game is broken or was released 'unfinished' and that is requires serious rebalancing, work which the developers have already stated that they are doing in this thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=537545

No doubt this collective outrage will continue unabated until the first patch comes out and even then, some folks will do their damned best to ensure that this community stays as wild and as angry as it currently is to ensure that the 'good work' of making Firaxis fix their game will continue. This in spite of all the evidence that Firaxis are doing this already. They did so with Civ 4 and 5 and they will do so again. With the historical precedent on my side, saying otherwise is just insecurity on your part. Of course, I am aware that this does not necessarily mean that I will be right with this game. Sometimes we definitely do deviate from the historical path but there is no evidence to suggest that this is true in this case. See the developers' thread linked above as well as the games that Civ IV and Civ V went on to be for the evidence supporting my position

 

[Bandobras Took]

Kutuzov, you just became one of my new favorite people. Not that that's worth much, but . . .

 

[Thormodr]

Good post by the Op.

The moderators are to be applauded for allowing free debate to occur which will only have the result of contributing to making this game series exceptionally great in so many categories once again. Tough love is what we are dispensing directed at the ongoing survival of the Civilisation Games Series.

I, too, share your optimism. This game series can indeed be great again.

The opposite of love is not hate. It's indifference.

People critique and criticize because they care.

So I applaud the community for standing up and telling Firaxis that the game is unacceptable in its current form and that they are abusing the good will of the community by releasing a game in this state. I also applaud the encouragement that the community is giving to Firaxis, as well. I respect the passion that people have for the game series.

I also applaud the moderators for allowing free debate to transpire on this sub-forum. That is not something you see on every game forum, that's for sure.

 

[Mikee]

Long Live the Civilisation Games,

No ideas or views are bad ideas or views, all ideas and views are opportunities for growth and advancement, discussion and mutual and collective understanding.

 

[Bandobras Took]

It's a bit off-topic, but are views that some views and ideas are bad bad?

 

[Tiedote]

I'm afraid of "legitimate negative feedback" getting regonizing and that we'll be again railroaded into 4 city microempires as they did with Civ V because that's what the majority of complaints seem to be about. The second camp is oldschoolers who wanted SMAC 2 and didn't get it.

Of course there is a lot of legitimate criticism such as the trade route system being pretty obscure yet mandatory chore, tier 4 units being so overly good, ridiculously bad unhealth is too forgiving and so on. They could and should have used a month or two to polish this thing. But I feel like this game would have gotten lot of flak anyway because this is neither Civ 5.2 nor SMAC 2.

 

[bouncymischa]

Anyway, I'm aware that I'm in a tiny minority on these boards and that my reasonable tone is not welcome here. I don't think the game is broken or was released 'unfinished' and that is requires serious rebalancing, work which the developers have already stated that they are doing in this thread.

I certainly agree with this -- I have no major issues with Civ:BE as it is, but see no point at trying to interact with a community that seems to be determined to fester as much vitriol as it can. This particular section of the Civ Fanatics forums are far from a welcoming place to those who don't agree with the predominant point of view.

The part the always amuses me, though, is how passive all of the complaining is. I've said before that I enjoy hanging out in the modding parts of the forum the most, because there you've got a ton of creative, energetic people who've decided to take what they've been given, and use their own effort to make it something more along the lines of what they want, whereas the general discussion forums are more typically filled with people sitting around complaining that someone else needs to change things and hand them everything they want on a silver platter.

So yeah, people can sit around their butts and spend the whole day complaining and waiting for someone else to take care of them. I'm going to be off doing what I can to make my games what I want them to be!

 

[Fabio1701]

I agree with Kutuzov. While critique can be constructive, it can also completely mess everything up if the old voices are heard over the silent majority. I am happy that cbe allows for wide play so we can have massive empires again.

 

[Mikee]

Suggestions:
Take into account the many very recent and new purchasers of BE who have only just loaded their copy and would like to express their view? It would seem that some who have had the benefit of a much longer time frame to experience this game may not be considering the late entries who “oh my gosh” are also not happy and enter the forum at a later stage.
Would anyone be happy if they were expected to purchase a brand new car for top price that had chipped paint, faulty components and did not drive very well? Is the new bench mark for products of the shelf to except an inferior product without complaint and then have to fix it oneself! Think of the majority of consumers that cannot modify and make changes themselves and completely rely on the product being completely serviceable upon purchase.
We are not paying for the privilege of fixing an inferior or broken product; these types of products are sold at a discount price. When we buy a product we are paying for the privilege of a product that has an extremely limited range of faults or no faults whatsoever.
It is a given that any game or product is not going to suit each and every consumer, however consumers who find a product they consider to be superior or suits them generally remain loyal to a particular product line. This is due to the fact that the particular product line of choice has proven itself over time, meets their needs and requirements and each new version lives up to and builds upon the quality offerings of the past.
From my particular perspective BE does introduce some new and exciting components such as the satellite’s. However on balance it would appear to discontinue far more good content than it introduces.
I doubt that anyone is trying to drown out positive opinions but maybe according to the poll the positive opinions are very much in the minority. Have no doubt that whether one is considered to be positive or considered negative regarding BE we are all true believers in this strategy game concept and are all seeking justification and support in order to continue to love the CIV Games and future offerings. Maybe one should set aside the concept of positive or negative and simply accept the diversity of comments as legitimate contributions to improving this game and future offerings.

 

[ToothedBomb]

... people sitting around complaining that someone else needs to change things and hand them everything they want on a silver platter.

Well, yeah... They paid for a product, and they think it's faulty, so the developers should fix it. We never paid for a 'make-your-own-Civ kit.' If you personally enjoy making mods, then that's great, but I don't see why other people should stop complaining about the problems they have with the game.

Though admittedly, I haven't spent too much time on the board lately, so I'm not sure of the problems here. I just quickly lost interest in the game, and now I check once in a while to see if there's any updates on a patch or whatever.

 

[Pietato]

I certainly agree with this -- I have no major issues with Civ:BE as it is, but see no point at trying to interact with a community that seems to be determined to fester as much vitriol as it can. This particular section of the Civ Fanatics forums are far from a welcoming place to those who don't agree with the predominant point of view.

The part the always amuses me, though, is how passive all of the complaining is. I've said before that I enjoy hanging out in the modding parts of the forum the most, because there you've got a ton of creative, energetic people who've decided to take what they've been given, and use their own effort to make it something more along the lines of what they want, whereas the general discussion forums are more typically filled with people sitting around complaining that someone else needs to change things and hand them everything they want on a silver platter.

So yeah, people can sit around their butts and spend the whole day complaining and waiting for someone else to take care of them. I'm going to be off doing what I can to make my games what I want them to be!

So game companies should just release rubbish with a modding kit, and expect everyone to learn how to mod?

People are not supposed to take anything you say seriously, correct?

 

[Recon Rover]

All you have really managed to provide in this discussion Kutuzov is a generalization about individuals who are upset with the game and a conspiracy theory that revolves around certain arguments against the game becoming louder than you think they should in an effort to drown out positive feedback. Neither seem rational.

Furthermore, I do not believe Civfanatics, despite its contribution to the community, is the sole or most important contributor to the feedback Firaxis revues nor the bellwether of future Civilization games especially where the “spiritual” successor of SMAX is concerned if that will abate your fears at all.

You’re thoroughly misplacing genuine disappointment with this game.

Anyone who understands anything about quality management in production of hardware or software can see the glaring mistakes that continue to occur with this particular company. The problems present is this game should have been identified and addressed long ago in the development phase. You cannot get away with this negligence scot-free anymore in today’s marketplace especially when your design phase completely ignores implementation of any new ideas and barely manages to meet the expected requirements of its customers.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I have a sneaking suspicion that they really have already figured this one out



It is. Haven't you read the developers' thread linked below? Why would you think otherwise other than 'I don't want to believe'? Honestly, there's almost nothing but bad criticism on these boards. There's even a thread complaining about being asked if you are sure about exiting your game without saving.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=539216

There's precious little that's positive here and when someone does post something positive, those who are not so happy with the game feel compelled to drown out their opinion with their frustration. Probably because they are frightened that Positivity that goes 'unchallenged' on these boards might somehow mislead the developers into thinking that we are happy and that there is no further need for them to finish their game. That's a rather Medieval outlook.



So, they stuck with both Civ IV and V after release and fixed both those games up in spite of the state of the games at their launch but you are willing to ignore this in favour of a negative, gloomy, and frankly unsupported view that they won't? This is a different way of not learning the lessons that history teaches us. Ignore the fact that they did not do this in the past, that they DID support their games. They're not going to support this one? Why do you think they won't? How can you support that statement?



I guess here that you are speaking about the reviews that were published by reviewers before release? That's fair enough if it is but I would strongly disagree with you if you are talking about forum feedback. In fact, I would say that the 'true view' is most certainly not on display on these boards right now. It's the 'angry view' that is on display here. We are certainly not all angry.



I really resent the implication that if you like this game that somehow you are not helping the developers, that you are actually doing them a dis-service in not throwing abuse at them and ridiculing their design decisions, insulting their testing team, etc. Or condoning this behavior in others on these boards which is just as bad.



Tough love?! OMG! How many horrors have been perpetrated in history with tough love in the perpetrators' hearts. Very Dominican. I will say nothing more.

Anyway, I'm aware that I'm in a tiny minority on these boards and that my reasonable tone is not welcome here. I don't think the game is broken or was released 'unfinished' and that is requires serious rebalancing, work which the developers have already stated that they are doing in this thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=537545

No doubt this collective outrage will continue unabated until the first patch comes out and even then, some folks will do their damned best to ensure that this community stays as wild and as angry as it currently is to ensure that the 'good work' of making Firaxis fix their game will continue. This in spite of all the evidence that Firaxis are doing this already. They did so with Civ 4 and 5 and they will do so again. With the historical precedent on my side, saying otherwise is just insecurity on your part. Of course, I am aware that this does not necessarily mean that I will be right with this game. Sometimes we definitely do deviate from the historical path but there is no evidence to suggest that this is true in this case. See the developers' thread linked above as well as the games that Civ IV and Civ V went on to be for the evidence supporting my position

"Always predict the worst and you’ll be hailed as a prophet."
— Tom Lehrer

I wish there were 'like' buttons on this board because sometimes I just want to agree with someone and be done with it. Well since I'm already typing I'll say Firaxis is not Maxis. I had high hopes for Spore and Sim City and even after release I saw a lot of potential in them, and did enjoy them somewhat. Maxis did not follow through. Even the technical support board for Spore gave up on helping me when I couldn't get my save files to transfer over to an new PC.
Maxis has a pattern. If it's not The Sims level successful then they don't support it. Firaxis' is quite good. I'll never get a Maxis game on release again. I was burned twice. I haven't always thought new Firaxis games were great out of the box but they're always gotten better.
Thank you Firaxis!

 

[joncnunn]

I'm seeing multiple active polls, which one is this thread title referring to?

 

[Bezurn]

"Always predict the worst and you’ll be hailed as a prophet."
— Tom Lehrer

I wish there were 'like' buttons on this board because sometimes I just want to agree with someone and be done with it.

I agree with your agreement of enjoying Firaxis Games. All major releases of Civ have had balance issues that needed to be sorted out. I still enjoy playing BE vanilla and there are lots of mods for me to try out when I want to spice it up more.

People don't often come to these boards to post positive things, because the most you can say is "oh yea, I like that too", and "yep, that is fun", which doesn't allow expanded conversation that keeps the discussion going and pinned to the front page for exposure and more eyeballs to see and weigh in (on what little substantive conversation that is available in "praise" threads). What ends up happening is those who are passionate about the game but don't enjoy it often come here and spend time talking about what went wrong. The silent majority come here and try to argue or discuss with the disgruntled and so those topics the disgruntled are involved in stay near the top. While those who do enjoy the game are spending that time playing it. When someone who does like the game comes here, they will see the front page full of topics about everything wrong with the game, and very few talking about the good aspects of it. It is quite disheartening.

So here's my post, and oh, yea, I don't even know what Poll the OP is referring to. Time to go back and play!

 

[Mikee]

Suggestions:
I have seen two references to the "silent majority" used so far, both references are assuming the position that the "silent majority" do not have any problems with BE. How many politicians and dictators throughout history have referred to the silent majority in support of their point of view?
I suggest that the silence of the majority does not automatically imply that they are either for or against any particular view. They are simply silent. They may be silent because the views and opinions being posted are more or less also representational of the silent majority and they may be ok that there is a discussion going on with their views being presented without them having to get involved and repeat what has already been said. Referring to the silent majority is a completely empty and valueless offering. All one can refer to is the poll and the available and real data to gain a feel for the general status of the CIV Gaming Community.
Many people may be in a state of denial that they have purchased a product that did not meet their expectations and rather than admit this find ways to justify why the purchase is good for them. Eternal optimism, however it should be very clear that no one actually wants to see this product fail and all posts are contributing to a process of improvement.
It would also seem that if all that one can say in support of a game is “yep that is fun” or “oh yea I like that to” is rather limited in expressing why the game is fun, enjoyable, challenging etc. It is the depth of description that provides greater understanding. Very often it is said that it is OK to complain providing the complainant also provides views and offerings on solutions. This also applies to providing a view on why the game is fun etc.
Maybe one should set aside the concept of positive or negative and simply accept the diversity of comments as legitimate contributions to improving this game and future offerings.

Moderator Action: It would be even better if everyone spoke for themselves and stopped trying to claim they are right by pointing to the support of others. State your positions, discuss with civility your disagreements and stop trying to prove your position is best, correct or validated by others. Those of us reading these boards can judge for ourselves who we think has stated their position best. Ultimately, the hope is that game developers will read your views and patch the game to make it better for all. This senseless arguing about who is right or wrong doesn't get us anywhere except into useless arguments that result in trolling and flaming and probably turns off the developers we hope are reading your threads.

 

[Recon Rover]

People don't often come to these boards to post positive things, because the most you can say is "oh yea, I like that too", and "yep, that is fun", which doesn't allow expanded conversation that keeps the discussion going and pinned to the front page for exposure and more eyeballs to see and weigh in (on what little substantive conversation that is available in "praise" threads). What ends up happening is those who are passionate about the game but don't enjoy it often come here and spend time talking about what went wrong. The silent majority come here and try to argue or discuss with the disgruntled and so those topics the disgruntled are involved in stay near the top. While those who do enjoy the game are spending that time playing it. When someone who does like the game comes here, they will see the front page full of topics about everything wrong with the game, and very few talking about the good aspects of it. It is quite disheartening.

So here's my post, and oh, yea, I don't even know what Poll the OP is referring to. Time to go back and play!

As for your silent majority...

Those with complaints are often the most motivated to voice them on the internet. However, that does not mean those not posting complaints are content with the game either. It is much more likely that for each person who is upset with this game, there are many more upset. This is a particular sour reality for any company because the ability to isolate issues becomes much more difficult from a despondent market.

This is why it is desirable to release quality products in the first place. The likelihood that Firaxis will recover the Beyond Earth brand with patches and expansions is now poor.

 

[Ryika]

As for your silent majority...

Those with complaints are often the most motivated to voice them on the internet. However, that does not mean those not posting complaints are content with the game either. It is much more likely that for each person who is upset with this game, there are many more upset. This is a particular sour reality for any company because the ability to isolate issues becomes much more difficult from a despondent market.

I think the player numbers show that whatever the the "silent majority" is doing... it's certainly not playing the game. BE was outnumbering Civ5 on release day, Civ5 itself fell to place 30 or something and now BE it has basically vanished from the charts and BNW is back in the top 5. So one thing that is rather save to assume is that the majority of players prefer playing Civ 5 over BE right now.

This is why it is desirable to release quality products in the first place. The likelihood that Firaxis will recover the Beyond Earth brand with patches and expansions is now poor.

That's what people said about Vanilla Civ5, too. G+K came, then came BNW and at the end, Civ5 became the Civ with the largest playerbase so far. BE came and players preordered/bought on release, then they "felt "used"" when they realized BE is just like Vanilla Civ5 in many regards (although it's certainly an improvement). But will they actually change their behavior? The brand-loyality is HUGE in the gaming industry, even with all the hate and shitstorms happening. Once BE is patched, people will start being all cuddly again. Although it remains to be seen if BE really manages to establish a big playerbase or if BNW remains on top. And if it doesn't, then I'm really looking forward to see if Firaxis still decides to try to push it with an addon.

But either way... releasing games in an unfinished status doesn't really seem to have too much negative consequences. The game has probably sold quite well (judging from the player count on release), the marketing phase before the next product in the series (be it an addon for BE or a new title) will get people hyped up again and the players (including me, but I at knew what I was getting myself into) have shown often enough that they will still pre-purchase games. So who really cares about the shitstorm that is going on right now? The wallet decides how companies act, not what people type on the forums. (And yeah, that's an overly grim way of looking at things. )