The Problem With Sprawling

[MaxAstro]

Don't misunderstand me, Sprawling is a fun mechanic for the Kuriotates and this isn't another "Cardith Lorda is underpowered" thread. No, the problem with Sprawling is something entirely different: The amount of damage it does to the game for everyone ELSE.

This is something I have been noticing a lot in games for a long time; I've only recently realized that it must be because of Sprawling, however. Here is the problem: The game knows that some cities can work the third ring. Because of that, a lot of things assume EVERY city can work the third ring. Namely:

-When normalizing start positions, the game will place resources only accessible from the third ring, and count them as being available for the start location, generally damaging start location quality.
-Events that target a tile near a city quite frequently target a tile in the third ring, thinking the city can still make use of the bonus food/commerce/whatever.
-Ocean resources often spawn three tiles away from land, thinking that third ring coastal cities will be able to work them.

Now... I'm not saying take Sprawling out of the game. However, I really think something needs to be done about these issues, as they really detract from the game for everyone except Cardith (especially #1, which BADLY hurts start locations sometimes, and #3, which makes coastal cities often much less attractive).

Of course, it's possible I'm wrong and Sprawling has nothing to do with this... however, if that's the case, then what IS the explanation for #2 and #3 (I could see #1 just being consistant bad luck, I guess)?

 

[Verily]

I'm not sure #1 is caused by Sprawling, but, even if it is, your starting Settler has a great deal of mobility to use to find a good start location.

 

[hbar]

I've actually had a lot of games lately that suffered from #1. Even if my initial settler has 4, it doesn't help if there are three food/health/happy resources around, spread so only one is accessible to any 2-tile BFC.

 

[tharg]

-When normalizing start positions, the game will place resources only accessible from the third ring, and count them as being available for the start location, generally damaging start location quality.
-Events that target a tile near a city quite frequently target a tile in the third ring, thinking the city can still make use of the bonus food/commerce/whatever.
-Ocean resources often spawn three tiles away from land, thinking that third ring coastal cities will be able to work them.

Are these three things true? Particularly 1 & 3?

It has not appeared that way to me but I might be confused.

 

[MrPopov]

#3 is very annoying. a 3ring coastal city isn't that great anyway, but to nerf the rest of the coastal cities with resources they can't reach is frustrating. Sometimes I world-builder resources too far away back in, but it's such a spoiler for the rest of the game when I see things I shouldn't

 

[Adrogans]

Yeah I've never really had an issue with #1 and 2, but #3 really blows cause I love coastal cities.

 

[rocklikeafool]

I've never had trouble with any of these.

Why does the game does these 3? Well, let's look at em each specifically. Oh, keep in mind, the game doesn't cater to you as much as you wish.
#1 The game knows you can use such resources simply for the health bonus or the ability to trade them.
#2 The game figures that you might build a city less than 2 rings away from that spot, especially since it now has that lil bonus.
#3 Read no. 1, man.

Btw, I think you'll find these are all true in BTS or Vanilla Civ if you go back and try a few games of those. So, this ain't an FfH thing. And, imho, it ain't a problem. But if you hate it so much, use WB to fix it. Cuz I doubt anyone will fix it for you. It's virtually impossible to do without a preloaded map (i.e. Nikis-Knight's Erebus Map or somethin similar). But most mapmakers find that, in order to maintain balance, it's best they place resources in a manner similar to how the map generator does. Or least as close as they can do so.

 

[Verily]

Sea-based resources never appear more than two tiles away from the coast in BtS (or any other non-modded version of Civ4).

 

[kumquatelvis]

I rarely have trouble with #1. In fact, I regularly get awesome starts. #3 might be an issue with pearls (you have pearls taking up a slot in the first two rings, but you can't see them so you don't know).

 

[sandroba]

I always get horsehockey starts in FfH and i have witnessed all the things you are saying, and it does make a lot of sense for the reason to be the sprawling thing. Kael could you please look into this?

 

[Morni]

Sea-based resources never appear more than two tiles away from the coast in BtS (or any other non-modded version of Civ4).

Yes they do. It actually happens a lot. It's called whales.

 

[sandroba]

I think he is refering to the unaccessible fish resourse that usually appear out of range from any possible cities.
Just try an archipelago map type, open the world builder and check out for yourselves.

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

I've noticed 1, 2 and 3 often enough to be annoying. Never game breaking of course, but very annoying indeed.

Could it be easier to just remove the Sprawling trait and give Kurio Cities a national wonder (capped at their max number of cities) that works like a slums? Then the game would seed according to the 2 tiles rule and we can all go on our merry way.

 

[Adrogans]

Interesting concept Crazy Ivan. If sprawling is actually the cause then that seems like a nice solution provided it gets built automatically.

 

[rocklikeafool]

I spose someone could do wat you suggest, Crazy_Ivan. But I doubt it will solve anythin.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Could it be easier to just remove the Sprawling trait and give Kurio Cities a national wonder (capped at their max number of cities) that works like a slums? Then the game would seed according to the 2 tiles rule and we can all go on our merry way.

I'm pretty sure that the slums only work because of the work done in implementing sprawling. In otherwords, the issue is third ring workability, not sprawling in general. Well, I shouldn't really say anything, I'm clueless about the details.

Iirc, the expanded range on bonuses is an automatic side effect of allowing an extra city ring, not something intentionally done. Maybe Kael has figured out a work-around since he first did it, but this was the easiest way at the time, I think.

 

[DrStalker]

Sometimes I world-builder resources too far away back in, but it's such a spoiler for the rest of the game when I see things I shouldn't

This is something I can help with: Places something in front of your monitor to cover up the minimap. Then you can tweak things without revealing more than one screen of terrain.

 

[RogueThunder]

Yes they do. It actually happens a lot. It's called whales.

Given 5 separately generated huge Archipelago maps combed left to right through the entire map.

No, they don't in base BTS.


Although a subnote, the smallest 2 map sizes, duel and tiny, I think can cause resources to place where they normally shouldn't, at least I would swear so. Some sort of crowding issue. But really this is most prevalent with Blessings on in FFH2... never cared about BTS long enough to play that much base.


And indeed, I imagine Slums is causing it too. Its cus its possible.

 

[Kael]

its intentional. The advantage of the kuriotates is that they get to use 3 rings. To make that valuable the things that happen around cities have to happen within 3 rings. It wouldnt be fair to have them happen in 2 rings for everyone else and 3 rings for the kuriotates (in which case where is their real advantage?).

Yes, it means that you won't always get to take advantage of some things. Just like you cant take advantage of religion additions with the Grigori.

Lets take the 3rd tile fish resources for example. I dont know if that results in less workable fish overall compared to without the sprawling mechanic (it isnt as simple as the game placing 10 fish resources so they are now spread out over a larger area). But we do offer the "Blessings of Amathaon" game option that will definitly provide more resources than a game without sprawling. So if you want more resources, that the option I would use.

 

[rocklikeafool]

And there's the obvious answer y'll were missin. Now, I spose someone will say, "Why do we have to select the 'Blessings of Amathaon'? Why can't you jus remove sprawlin?" Why can't people jus accept certain things and quit whinin? I'm pretty sure Kael has to answer tons of useless threads like this. And I doubt he finds it refreshin. If everyone used their heads and the pedia, we wouldn't get threads like this.