The Promise of Capitalism.

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by thestonesfan

*yawn* I firmly believe that in the United States, you can rise out of poverty if you have the conviction for it. But I probably give people more credit than you would. Sit on your a$$ and watch wrestling all day and you won't amount to anything.

Capitalism doesn't decrease equality. It rewards success, and is ambivilant to equality. Enforced equality is only an illusion of equality, and throws dirt in the face of freedom.

A firm Amen to both of these statements. I couldn't have said it better myself, so I won't even try.

@Thadlerian: You may disagree with Greadius, but I note you haven't refuted his claim. It is unreasonable to expect him to respond in detail to something that has been cut and pasted. While I disagree with what you posted, giving your own thoughts on it will enhance the meaningfullness of the exchange.

 

[Thadlerian]

Why do you say 'cut and pasted'?

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Because instead of being eager for discussion, that side has hit a brick wall, Thadlerian. There is no way to refute your claims, but I have noticed that insulting you, impugning your sources, and painting images of "sitting on your ass watching wrestling" when in certain quarters in America it is still, "putting plastic buckets in your pickup truck and driving to the *government tested it for uranium but won't release the results* well to fill up your water supply for the day" have replaced mature discussion from 'the center right'.

Again, capitalism isn't to blame necessarily, but the system around it has flaws.

PS- the important thing to remember Thadlerian, in arguing with Greadius, if you get the last post, you win.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by Cecasander
And then there are a lot of people who are poor in the US. According to UN figures, about 12% of the American population lives below the international live of poverness, of $2 a day...

The rest of your post was just ranting and hyperbole, but your one attempt to use figures is wrong.

Can you provide a source for this?

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by Antonius Block
I'm sorry Greadius, but Thadlerian has you in this argument.

Its not his arguement. He skipped 3/4 of what I said and instead posted someone elses take about FTZ, which is a red herring tactic to take a macro-economical historical discussion of the economies of the world and turn it into "Look how bad this three mile stretch in Africa is compared to American suburbs" discussion.

Originally posted by Antonius Block
I did used to live near projects in New Orleans that were worse equipped than African thatch huts, and I have heard stories about some of our native American reservations-- well, but they'll all get casinos sooner or later, right?

Their standard of living is higher, their social support network is available, and they do have the oppertunity to improve their lot in life, or those of their children.

Originally posted by Antonius Block
The problem is that the "first world" today- US/Canada, Europe, Australia, Japan- is the same size as the "first world" eighty years ago, despite the long quest of nations like Brazil, India, Mexico, to join it. And that demonstrates some kind of flaw in the system...

Not true... people in Brazil, India, and Mexico live better now than they did 80 years ago.... but its essentially a discussion of industrialization. First world nations have a head start, in some cases a big one, 50-60 years, so its unrealistic to expect other nations to 'catch-up'. Our standards for what creates a first world nation changes as the standard of living increases there.
The list of the top 20 richest (per capita) nations of the world has done quite a bit of switching, though:
Luxenburg
U.S.
Switzerland
Norway
Denmark
Canada
Japan
Austria
Germany
Belguim
Netherlands
Finland
France
Hong Kong
U.K.
Sweden
Singapore
Italy
Australia
Israel

Originally posted by Antonius Block
Because instead of being eager for discussion, that side has hit a brick wall, Thadlerian. There is no way to refute your claims, but I have noticed that insulting you, impugning your sources, and painting images

Sheesh, did you read what I wrote. I have new standards of arguementation so I don't waste as much time here. #1 & 2 are I won't argue with third parties (like someone elses writings on FTZs reposted), and I won't argue on different terms to see who can make the most absolutist speech (like Cecasander hyperbole).

Its not an intellectual discussion and a waste of my time.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Argh! Allright, perhaps the problem for me was that I missed the whole Macroeconomics section.

I've said I agree capitalism is what works. But no matter what you summon to refute them, there are indeed still - and probably always will be- blemishes.

 

[thestonesfan]

Human government will be flawed as long as humans are flawed, which will be forever.

At least I hope so, or life would get unbearably dull.

 

[Remorseless]

Graedius, give it up my friend. You cannot convince really cool guys who happened upon a few leftist web sites while cruising for free ice cream.
Moderator Action: Warned, flaming, trolling. Lefty
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Frankly, in 44 years, 13 years as a journalist, growing up as an Air Force brat (where I got to see Manila and East Berlin), I cannot ever conceive of any American existing on $2 a day unless they wanted to. Hell, in Texas, a chintzy, right-wing state, you can get at least $200 a month in welfare, food stamps and free government housing. FOR DOING NOTHING! At least, nothing useful.

As a counterargument, there are many countries where $2 a day is a grand wage: Cuba, N. Korea come to mind. You know, workers' paradises.

Capitalism is flawed, most definitely. So is democracy. So is socialism. And for those morons who don't actually pay attention to the news, read books, pay attention in school, remember this:

There is no pure capitalism in the world today that IS SUCCEEDING. Even in the "brutal, imperialist" US, we have:
welfare
Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
Food Stamps
loans to retrain workers
Workers compensation
Unemployment
Free education to all
Subsidized higher education for the poor
Etc. etc.

How the no vulgarity, bleeped or not is that pure capitalism? So all you lefties out there who want to rant and rave about the evil of capitalism, remember this: what capitalism does provide, because it must provide it to succeed at all, is the opportunity for anyone through hard work, education to make something of themselves. We have black millionaires here, Muslim millionaires, Jewish ones, hell, even Okie millionaires.

Is it fair? What in life is fair, except when mommy and daddy spoil their little baby by giving him a computer even though he can't make good grades in school?

Graedius, again, I salute you for your valiant yet wasted effort to educate some of the true morons on this board.

 

[metalhead]

Originally posted by Remorseless
Graedius, give it up my friend. You cannot convince puerile pimply punks who happened upon a few leftist web sites while cruising for free porn sites they could get into (or off on).

Hey now, keep the free porn sites out of it! They sure beat the hell out of buying Playboy

 

[Thadlerian]

Don't you shoot yourself quite a lot in the foot with this post, yelling to everyone who want to hear about it, what kind of person you are, and how much respect you show your fellow posters?

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by Thadlerian
Why do you say 'cut and pasted'?

1. 'copied verbatim' would insult your intelligence in that it would assume you don't know how to cut and paste.

2. The english in those pieces is better than your own. That is in no way a disparagement of your skills in English, but does point to a conclusion that those words are not your own.

3. The claim has been made and you have in no way disputed it. If someone had wrongfully accused me of plagerism, I would be rather indignant, and would refute the claim.

You may argue that #3 is placing my mind-set on you. I am aware that due to our differences of other opinions, this may be another area where we would respond differently to the same information. I take this as less likely, and include this in the observances that led me to my conclusion.

You may also argue that none of this proves beyond a reasonable doubt that you didn't copy this arguement. True, but fortunately I am not trying to convict you of a crime, and my burden of proof isn't nearly so high.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Hey Remorseless, why don't you go post this trash on a website where insults and juvenilia are the norm instead of frowned on...

Originally posted by Remorseless
Graedius, give it up my friend. You cannot convince puerile pimply punks who happened upon a few leftist web sites while cruising for free porn sites they could get into (or off on).

You have immediately lost my interest in any further point you might make by speculating on your opponent's acne level, dress style, and I don't even know what puerile means. But also nice to portray him as looking for porn. Why don't you make it kiddie porn and see if you can have him thrown in jail?

Frankly, in 44 years, 13 years as a journalist, growing up as an Air Force brat (where I got to see Manila and East Berlin), I cannot ever conceive of any American existing on $2 a day unless they wanted to.

And yet some have to.

Hell, in Texas, a chintzy, right-wing state, you can get at least $200 a month in welfare, food stamps and free government housing. FOR DOING NOTHING! At least, nothing useful.

If you qualify.

As a counterargument, there are many countries where $2 a day is a grand wage: Cuba, N. Korea come to mind. You know, workers' paradises.

Capitalism is flawed, most definitely. So is democracy. So is socialism. And for those morons who don't actually pay attention to the news, read books, pay attention in school, remember this:

There is no pure capitalism in the world today that IS SUCCEEDING. Even in the "brutal, imperialist" US, we have:
welfare
Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
Food Stamps
loans to retrain workers
Workers compensation
Unemployment
Free education to all
Subsidized higher education for the poor
Etc. etc.

How the F*** is that pure capitalism? So all you lefties out there who want to rant and rave about the evil of capitalism, remember this: what capitalism does provide, because it must provide it to succeed at all, is the opportunity for anyone through hard work, education to make something of themselves. We have black millionaires here, Muslim millionaires, Jewish ones, hell, even Okie millionaires.

Yeah, what we were saying.

Is it fair? What in life is fair, except when mommy and daddy spoil their little baby by giving him a computer even though he can't make good grades in school?

I rather wish they hadn't treated you so kind...

Graedius, again, I salute you for your valiant yet wasted effort to educate some of the true morons on this board.

I see only one moron so far in this thread, a poster that hasn't yet recognized the code of conduct around here. But you'll go back to your right wing forum and talk about how people are such babies here, when you are the only one who has taken this discussion to the level of personal insults and wild speculation. I know you won't get banned for flaming Thadlerian, because you flame from the "treasury of capitalism, oh, I was an air force brat" right wing, and that is the real problem on CFC- right wingers like yourself are not punished enough when they violate civility, so you never learn when to stop, so you constantly bait left wingers and when they respond- they're gone.

Grow the **** up, mister 44 year old who writes like a teenager.

 

[Thadlerian]

Originally posted by knowltok2
2. The english in those pieces is better than your own. That is in no way a disparagement of your skills in English, but does point to a conclusion that those words are not your own.

This is getting wilder and wilder...

3. The claim has been made and you have in no way disputed it.

There would have been no use disputing it, which I saw at once. That would simply sound like ranting.

If someone had wrongfully accused me of plagerism, I would be rather indignant, and would refute the claim.

That is what anyone would decide to do, even if they had plagiarised. How does suddenly disputing an accusation become proof enough to prove the accusation false?

 

[metalhead]

Originally posted by Antonius Block
... right wingers like yourself are not punished enough when they violate civility, so you never learn when to stop, so you constantly bait left wingers and when they respond- they're gone.

To be fair, Antonius, right wingers aren't the only forum denizens who violate civility. There is plenty of incivility on these boards, and taking someone else's bait into incivility and name-calling is no excuse.

 

[Thadlerian]

Originally posted by metalhead


To be fair, Antonius, right wingers aren't the only forum denizens who violate civility. There is plenty of incivility on these boards, and taking someone else's bait into incivility and name-calling is no excuse.

That's right. Right-wing'ers aren't the only problem, or have we already forgotten Chairman Yang and what made him banned?

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

That's my point exactly. People go ape****, people get punished. They come back, and sometimes they've learned how to behave. If not, they punished again. Eventually, perma banned. Now from my perspective there are posters who've been around a long time without curbing their enthusiasm for trolling, and they all tend to speak from the right wing perspective. Because they get warned or three day bans or sometimes just have their posts deleted quietly with no warning for the same kinds of language- or worse language- that invites 7 day bans and scathing reviews for liberals/Europeans.

And I'm just as likely or more likely to get banned for pointing this out as remorseless is for calling you pimply.

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by Thadlerian

That is what anyone would decide to do, even if they had plagiarised. How does suddenly disputing an accusation become proof enough to prove the accusation false?

Out of curiousity, have you ever had to accuse someone of plagiarism? They do not all suddenly dispute the claim. When innocent, they try to establish their innocence. When guilty they usually try to blow it off and pretent they didn't realize it. I have seen and dealt with both kinds.

Disputing an accusation obviously does not automatically prove that the accusation is false. However, done well, and with back-up, it can disprove it, and or at least put it in dispute. So far you have not backed up the arguements that were originally called into question with further arguements of your own. You can of course choose not to, and certainly there will be no way of definitively proving that you did copy those thoughts. My analysis of the situation has not changed though, and I will stand by my assessment.

 

[Thadlerian]

Originally posted by knowltok2
Out of curiousity, have you ever had to accuse someone of plagiarism? They do not all suddenly dispute the claim. When innocent, they try to establish their innocence. When guilty they usually try to blow it off and pretent they didn't realize it. I have seen and dealt with both kinds.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Spoken like a teacher, Knowltok!

The response I usually get is extreme guilt and immediate confession. But that is not on the anonymous internet, it is face to face.

Oh well, so Greadius chose to decide Thadlerian was plagiarizing and he didn't feel like responding to the alleged plagiarism. Sounds like a good way to bow out of an argument to me.

 

[vonork]

A nice quote from a Swedish ship company on the quastion if they had any thoughts about renting out ships to transport troops to the Gulf.

"We don't mix moral and money"

Ain't that the beuty of Capatalism