The Rights of Men

[Ryika]

Let's apply this to MRAs, why aren't they in Africa or Saudi Arabia?

Do they claim to be? The ones I know are pretty clear about having the goal to change things in America and/or England.

 

[Senethro]

Do you seriously understand "First you'd have to prove that they aren't. Just saying the numbers are not the same doesn't mean much." as "you would not simply accept numbers that were different"?

A number itself just does not mean much. Here, have an example:

- 90% of all people in Yoga-Clubs are women (<- random number, I don't know if it's really 90%)

Your reaction:
"OH MY GOD, YOGA-CLUBS DISCRIMINATE AGAINST MEN!!!!!!!!!!!"

My reaction:
"Okay, let's take a look that these numbers mean. Let's ask 20000 men and 20000 women what they think about Yoga. Aha, aha. 97% of these men say they have no interest in Yoga. 50% of the women say they have no interest in Yoga. Well, that probably explains some of the gap. Let's check for other factors (etc.)"

If you really think your reaction (just seeing a raw number and thinking you can draw a conclusion from that) is correct and my reaction (seeing a raw number and wanting to break it down into all things that influence the raw number) is just trying to do some nefarious stuff, then I feel sorry for you, because you have no idea how wrong you are.

I'm not sure what this is a reply to.

 

[Senethro]

Do they claim to be? The ones I know are pretty clear about having the goal to change things in America and/or England.

If they don't support all men then they are undercutting their legitimacy, surely. Or are the rules different. Or do you only make bad faith assumptions about feminists?

 

[useless]

Do they claim to be? The ones I know are pretty clear about having the goal to change things in America and/or England.

Perhaps they should make that more clear then or change their name, letting people know they only care about (white) males in the western world.

 

[Ryika]

I'm not sure what this is a reply to.

Then I feel truly sorry.

If they don't support all men then they are undercutting their legitimacy, surely. Or are the rules different. Or do you only make bad faith assumptions about feminists?

No, the rules are simple:

- If you claim to care about Africa then do things that help Africa
- If you don't claim to care about Africa then you don't have to help Africa

Does Feminism claim to help Africa?
- Yes, a lot of the time when people try to legitimize the Feminism Movement Africa and other parts of the third world are brought up as arguments for why feminism is still required.

Does the MRM claim to help Africa?
- As I said, to the best of my knowledge they do not. But I don't know that much about the MRM, so if they do, provide me evidence about that and I will hold them to the same standard.

 

[useless]

How can someone claim to be for male rights and then proceed to ignore the vast majority of males in the world?

 

[Senethro]

Then I feel truly sorry.


No, the rules are simple:

- If you claim to care about Africa then do things that help Africa
- If you don't claim to care about Africa then you don't have to help Africa

Does Feminism claim to help Africa?
- Yes, a lot of the time when people try to legitimize the Feminism Movement Africa and other parts of the third world are brought up as arguments for why feminism is still required.

Does the MRM claim to help Africa?
- As I said, to the best of my knowledge they do not. But I don't know that much about the MRM, so if they do, provide me evidence about that and I will hold them to the same standard.

Weird. The monolithic single entity of Feminism can both be criticised for addressing small problems locally, and allegedly not acting internationally. Whereas for others it is ok.

But this double standard is ok because ???

 

[Senethro]

I don't have a full methodology worked out yet, but a solid first step would be to ask yourself, "what does this person actually DO?" If the only answer you can come up with is "write blog posts and monitor Twitter 20 hours a day" chances are good we're dealing with a whiny crybaby. Legitimate activists do something. They donate time at women's shelters. They fund raise for women's causes. They do academic research. They don't tweet 500 times a day with #patreon.

Useless, keep track of this post please. I've a feeling it'll be needed later when discussing the MRM.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Useless, keep track of this post please. I've a feeling it'll be needed later when discussing the MRM.

Yes, you will definitely need to quote something that is a subjective opinion later on in the discussion .

 

[Ryika]

Weird. The monolithic single entity of Feminism can both be criticised for addressing small problems locally, and allegedly not acting internationally. Whereas for others it is ok.

But this double standard is ok because ???

Noooo, I already told you that it is perfectly fine to work on local problems if you made it clear that your goal is working at local problems.

Many feminists however claim to care about Africa without ever doing anything about Africa, and that is rightfully being criticized. If these parts of feminism did not claim to care about Africa and instead made it clear that they want to work on local problems that would be perfectly fine.

Is that really so hard to understand, or are you just doing your best to not get what I'm saying?

And about the "monolithic single entity of Feminism"-nonsense: I already said that this whole part of the discussion is not really important because nobody here claimed to care about Africa in the first place.

Here, I'll give you a reasonable response that you can repeat for yourself and then let this topic go: "Oh well, I guess some parts of feminism are indeed doing that but I am not, so there is nothing I need to defend here."

 

[Senethro]

Noooo, I already told you that it is perfectly fine to work on local problems if you made it clear that your goal is working at local problems.

Many feminists however claim to care about Africa without ever doing anything about Africa, and that is rightfully being criticized. If these parts of feminism did not claim to care about Africa and instead made it clear that they want to work on local problems that would be perfectly fine.

Is that really so hard to understand, or are you just doing your best to not get what I'm saying?

And about the "monolithic single entity of Feminism"-nonsense: I already said that this whole part of the discussion is not really important because nobody here claimed to care about Africa in the first place.

Here, I'll give you a reasonable response that you can repeat for yourself and then let this topic go: "Oh well, I guess some parts of feminism are indeed doing that but I am not, so there is nothing I need to defend here."

Well.

I dunno.

Who says feminists aren't active in africa and on what grounds?

 

[useless]

All you ever hear from the likes or AVFM is vitriol and complaining about feminism and women, what have they accomplished? Nothing.

 

[Ryika]

Well.

I dunno.

Who says feminists aren't active in africa and on what grounds?

There is only so much stupidity and dishonesty I can take in one day.

So I will now get back to improving my drawing skills.

 

[Senethro]

There is only so much stupidity and dishonesty I can take in one day.

So I will now get back to improving my drawing skills.

Like, whats the bar to jump here? Do I need to sample 20K random western feminists who have declared interest in Africa or can I just enter feminism + africa into Google? Do I need to show hours worked? Currency spent?

 

[madviking]

Well.

I dunno.

Who says feminists aren't active in africa and on what grounds?

here's an example of women's liberation in africa

 

[Wolfbeckett]

here's an example of women's liberation in africa

He sounds like an incredibly interesting person, but I'm not sure what one African dude who died in 1987 has to do with modern western feminism. If there are modern feminist groups in Africa or the middle east actively fighting against the oppression that happens there I think everyone in this thread would love to support them. What was being discussed here are western feminists.

But, come to think of it, all of this is off topic with this thread, which was supposed to be about men's issues. My apologies to the OP for participating in this derailing, I'm going to stop that and only continue to respond to posts that are actually about men's issues.

 

[warpus]

Saying yes seems to be out of fashion around here. So I'm going to say kinda. Mostly. In its most damaging form.

That's sort of stuttering around the issue and then giving the wrong answer. I mean, I wasn't asking you whether one type of sexism is more damaging than another.

"If it doesn't have pepperoni on it, it's not pizza. Kinda. Mostly. In its tastiest form."

 

[Senethro]

That's sort of stuttering around the issue and then giving the wrong answer. I mean, I wasn't asking you whether one type of sexism is more damaging than another.

"If it doesn't have pepperoni on it, it's not pizza. Kinda. Mostly. In its tastiest form."

Issues be complex.

 

[brennan]

All you ever hear from the likes or AVFM is vitriol and complaining about feminism and women, what have they accomplished? Nothing.

Ah the old 'what have they accomplished' non sequitur...

You could have said something similar regarding the Suffragettes before women received the vote - and it would have been an equally vacuous 'criticism'.

 

[useless]

Except feminism has actually had some successes and resulted in changes, im still waiting to hear of any successes from the MRM.