The Rise and Fall of the Mughal Empire

[El Justo]

Ram,

one way to sort of even the field a bit for the AI would be to make the "Battle Created Unit" and army unit instead of a "Great Leader". this kind of forces the AI into using armies instead of hrrying production, etc.

these are just thoughts, not recommendations

 

[Rambuchan]

Ah!! That's a damn good point there. They have tended to hurry production. I hadn't thought of that. Noted with thanks.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Ram,

one way to sort of even the field a bit for the AI would be to make the "Battle Created Unit" and army unit instead of a "Great Leader". this kind of forces the AI into using armies instead of hrrying production, etc.

these are just thoughts, not recommendations

The problem with this is that no new armies can be spawned from battle until the previous one has died, which might be considered undesirable. OTOH, it prevents the Army stacks that a human player can use with such devastating effect.

 

[El Justo]

The problem with this is that no new armies can be spawned from battle until the previous one has died, which might be considered undesirable. OTOH, it prevents the Army stacks that a human player can use with such devastating effect.

what of the "Minimum Cities Required" to support the army units?

this does not come into the equation as i thought it had [standard-default]?

...although there is nothing worse than having a human-controlled army unit that simply crushes its AI opponent.

 

[The Last Conformist]

The mimimum cities per army only affects built armies, not spawned ones, it seems. However, no new battlecreated unit can arise as long as you have one in the field. Normally, this doesn't matter much, since you normally convert MGLs pretty much immediately, but if you have armies as the battlecreated unit, you can get any new ones till the old one dies. Effectively, this limits you to one army per civ (absent Mil Acad), which may be a good or bad thing depending on one's preferences.

An army stack needn't be large to be unstoppable by the AI - already 3-4 is more than the AI can normally handle.

 

[Nyvin]

I have to say that the sceanario is really well setup. I like that there aren't a lot of cities in the beginning to keep load time down. Also the Civilipedia is very well done.

I played as each of the European Civs on it though, and found some things that do need to be changed perhaps. First off, all except Portugal start on what are basically offshore, useless islands, which if their AI's, they'll almost never get off of. The brittish in particular almost always just end up trying to to expand into the useless desert area around them, and the Dutch usually go for southeast Asia (Vietnam area) The French island capital has a production of a whole one. They will expand to the little island usually, but after that they stay put for the most part.

To fix this problem I would probably just go ahead and make each Euro civ have a capital on the continent, it would make the scenario work out better in the end. Even if it's not historically accurate, it's probably the only way to produce the affect the Europeans had on India.

Also the idea of the Supply Port spawning Galleons every 5 turns is kinda overpowered a bit, only because every coastal city can build them. You most likely don't want all those Galleons on what is basically a pangea map anyway, and it's just too many in the end. It'd be okay if the building spawning them was a small wonder in their capital, you'd still get plenty of Galleons, and the supply port does enough without the galleons anyway.

A small thing on the French is the musketeer is available at the beginning, and it triggers a golden age...you of course would want to use the musketeer, but not get a golden age at the beginning with one city that has a production of one. I'd give them a different UU or at least take away the Musketeer's golden age ability.

The rest is just some ideas of my own that I had that I guess you can consider on your own...

I thought it'd be kewl if you had a second age something like "European Imperialism" Where it's considered that the Europeans generally got the upper hand and the other powers have to deal with it. How exactly you'd play this age out is up to you, but it's certainly a good idea. Maybe introducing a new form of government for the non-european civs?

Also I think it's a pretty snazzy idea to make certain European units require luxuries to build. This would reflect how if the Home countries demands were met, the homeland would invest more into the company. It could also act as a balancer if you do include the Europeans on the mainland (their capital).

 

[Rambuchan]

Thanks a lot for the feedback Nyvin. I actually accept all the comments you have made (but one, below). They are very fair. Did you find that those shortcomings applied for your experience of playing the Europeans, rather than the AI's?

I also found that the AI Euros were pretty lame. But I found when playing those civs myself that they were in fact very powerful. The thing is balancing the abilities of the AI with those of the human .

European Starts: This is a problem for the AI. The Editor God only knows how much time I spent trying to get what you suggest ie. starting them off on the mainland. You seem to know a fair bit about the history so do you have any suggestions which Euros to start off where on the mainland at game start?

My thoughts:

British - Between Bengal and Golconda. (They are easy to kick off if they start there, and they never manage to come back)

French - Actually on the site of Pondicherry for real. This is quite good. I didn't go for it because it took away the mad scramble at game start for the VPL on the south tip of India. Maybe I got my priorities wrong

Dutch - This is a hard one because they mainly focussed on land not on the map. They did take Ceylon and it's virtually impossible to recreate that without starting them right there, which just seemed bizarre. This would also clash with the proposed alteration for the French.

Portuguese - They do just fine IMO right?

Port Supply Improvement: I think I may well change to your suggestion of having a small wonder for this. The shipbuilding support is needed without doubt but I also found I had an excess of Galleon, I just kept disbanding them for production boosts. Should have dealt with this.

French & Dutch Golden Ages: Your comments on the French apply for the Dutch too. I gave them early golden ages so they could not get very far in the game. It sucks playing them but it's a reality thing ya know. I'm not so inclined to agree on this point. If they got another, later GA then it wouldn't sit quite right with a recreation of history. These two pretty much got outdone by England and Portugal.

Late Game Extensions: Don't think I haven't thought about it . I'm not willing to get involved in another scenario creation right now, even if it is just extending this one. I'm now aware of what an undertaking it is! Besides, it'd be tough to improve on a government better than Colonialism .

Thanks again for the feedback. I'm sure some of this will make it into the upgrade. I'm just waiting to hear more feedback from everyone, so I don't go changing it just for one or two people.

 

[silver 2039]

I also found that the AI Euros were pretty lame. But I found when playing those civs myself that they were in fact very powerful. The thing is balancing the abilities of the AI with those of the human .

European Starts: This is a problem for the AI. The Editor God only knows how much time I spent trying to get what you suggest ie. starting them off on the mainland. You seem to know a fair bit about the history so do you have any suggestions which Euros to start off where on the mainland at game start?

SImply make 2 version one with the Euro nations stronger for the Ai when the human plays the Indian civs.
Then keep this version when the human plays the Euro civs.

 

[Rambuchan]

That's a good solution Silver. I'm not too happy about confusing people with alternate biqs, but it ain't that confusing! I think I would prefer to achieve 'a one biq solution' before I try having optional biqs. You must have some thoughts on where to start the Euros off at 1521 no?

 

[johnnyjal]

Great job!! I really like this alot.
Even though I don't think I'm getting the whole flavor of it.
Since I couldn't decide which civ to play, the random choice
gave me the VOC. Doing better than I thought I would but
the other traders not doing much so far.
I will have to try it again as one of the locals.

It's a great setup, quickly one of my favorites.
I really like those auto producing improvements.
Would y'all allow me to use a derivative of these
in a scn I been trying to make?

Anyway, thanks for the great scn!!

 

[Rambuchan]

Hi Johnny . Thanks for the kind words. The VOC are fun to play with but do not provide a typically genuine experience nor do they really get involved in the heart of the action. The Portuguese and British (gotta be lucky and wise in your first turns) are the ones for that. Even the French to a lesser extent. The Brits and Vasco's Traders both have formidable UUs which adds to the fun.

I most enjoyed test playing this as the Indian civs (Golconda, Rajput, Bengal, Bijapur, Ahmadnagar and most different of all - Vijayanagara). They are right in the thick of it, have the mighty Mughals to deal with and also have all those cool looking units to build, plus easy access to the luxuries.

And if you want to use it for something, just go ahead, but do let us know how that is going from time to time, drop a link in or something. Hope you enjoy the next time round!

 

[silver 2039]

Portoguese-Goa, Calicut is fine
British-Bombay perhaps? Calcutta? also (Something near burma or malaysia/Singapore perhaps)
France-Pondicherry, and Cochin also (Something near Vietnam/Siam)
Ducth-Rather difficult....

Not historically accurate true but it does eventually become histrically accurate and it makes the Erous a stronger force to contend with.

BTW you might as well rename Nepal to Tibet.

 

[Rambuchan]

Thanks Silver, I'm coming round to the idea of producing:

a) An updated biq based on the comments so far, without Euro mainland cities (for when humans are playing Euros. )

b) A potential secondary Biq for playing any civ but the Euros. This would see them starting with mainland cities.

 

[Nyvin]

For Euro capitals on the mainland i'd probably make it

Portuguese - Goa

French - Pondicherry

Brittish - Calcutta (I would say bombay, but that's too close to Goa...)

Dutch - somewhere in Ceylon I supose, or southwestern India maybe, they typically were in the south of India, not really going much into the North.

These choices do keep them spread out pretty well, and it is their generally first areas of contact anyway. The only thing that wouldn't matchup would be the date.

But be sure to fix France and Dutch's UU up so it doesn't give a golden age...that ain't any good. The Dutch's golden age would definately be around 1650's, when they had "by far" the most profitable european empire in the eastern world. The French would be probably later around 1700 when they were probably the most powerful country in the world. Brittish would be 1763, and Portuguese could in theory be at the start of the game really.

 

[garric]

thanks a lot..

 

[Rambuchan]

Thanks for the advice Nyvin. Much appreciated. I'm thinking that the Gujarat (which was deliberately left unpopulated for expansion) would be a place to start the Brits off on, but not with a city. I'd probably do the same over in Calcutta actually. BTW - there first base in India was called Fort St George and was in fact on the site that Calcutta/Kolkata now stands on.

And garric if you're saying thanks for the scenario - it's our pleasure! And even your brief comment is appreciated. Good to know folk are playing it at least!

 

[silver 2039]

I keep getting this error even though I've downloaded and extracted this scenario twice...

 

[silver 2039]

Any help anyone? I really would like to play this scenario.

 

[The Last Conformist]

It looks like you're lacking the ArchVicYell.wav file in the Art/units/Archer in your Civilization III folder. This could be due to having played around with the vanilla art files, or to a localized version of the game.

The easiest workaround is probably going to the the Rise of Mughal folder in under scenarios, finding Art/units/Hindu Spearman/Hindu Spearman.ini, and changing the line "VICTORY=..\Archer\ArchVicYell.wav" to "VICTORY=".

 

[Luddi VII]

I've checked and the ArchVicYell.waw file was in it's proper location, so it has to be something with your vanilla art files, as TLC says.