The second death...

[Avahz Darkwood]

Lore wise what happens to angels and demons when they die in the mortal world. Lets say a unit dies and joins the Mercurians in battle as an angel. If it then dies again in battle does it face oblivion, the heavens, hells...?

 

[MalkutX]

When angles die, they get reincarnated as protractors. At least, that's what my geometry teacher told me. He was probably on drugs, though.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

HAHA thats one of them spelling errors I never seem to get right...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I died as inanimate matter and arose a plant,

I died as a plant and rose again an animal.

I died as an animal and arose a man.

Why then should I fear to become less by dying?

I shall die once again as a man

To rise an angel perfect from head to foot!

Again when I suffer dissolution as an angel,

I shall become what passes the conception of man!

Let me then become non-existent, for non-existence

Sings to me in organ tones, 'To him shall we return.'

It is rather unclear. It sounds like death as an angel (or demon?) is considered to be a state on non-being similar to Nirvana, but I have my doubts about that. "To him shall we return" could also refer to being reunited with The One, but I'm dubious about that too. That seems to conflict with the notion that The One sundered Creation from the True Heaven, and that no one shall meet him until he returns to judge the world. It is possible that no one really knows what happens to a vanquished angel. Or it could be that the speaker in this entry doesn't know what he is talking about. Perhaps angels cannot truly die, only be vanquished to --somewhere else, be it their god's vault or a storage place like where the Dragons rest. It could also be that no being with a Divine Spark (which includes humans and the gods, but likely not the other true angels) can truly perish, but that other intelligent beings like animals, the mother of humanity, and true angels are just made of "matter" and can be destroyed without a trace (although the material that made them up could continue to exist in different forms, their minds and souls would be forever gone). I'd probably guess that there is some sort of Purgatory in which all souls are stored until judgment day, but I can't say if that is outside of Creation or if vanquished angels and demons must be guarded by Arawn in the underworld. We do know that Sucellus's soul went to the Underworld when his body was torn apart. It seems Mulcarn's soul escaped and reentered the world in a mortal form.

 

[KillerClowns]

I think the Angel pedia entry answers this, in a vague, mystical half-answer sort of way. It can either be read being annihilated and joining with the One, or just plain being annihilated.
I would assume demons would face outright oblivion.
EDIT: Ninja'd, with 'pedia itself. I'm thinking the nirvana in annihilation is what the angel seeks, although the part about "to him we shall return" conflicts with that...
I still say demons are simply annihilated. Or, at best, the part of them that was turned into a demon is annihilated while what is left awaits the One's judgement.

 

[xienwolf]

non-existance and annihilation are different things completely. Non-existence can just mean passing from this frame of being into another completely. He says that it is to pass into being something that surpasses the ken of Man's imagination. Thus he is admitting that he not only has no words for what comes next, but that it is as impossible for him to grasp it as it was for inanimate matter to grasp the concept of a plant.

 

[Fenboy]

Even if we did stop Nale from being raised, what about Sabine? She's an outsider. Kill her, and she just returns to the Lower Planes and rematerialises down there.

I think.

Honestly I don't really know how that works, I think they keep changing it.

Man I love Order of the Stick

 

[Kael]

The Angel pedia entry is a quote from the Masnavi, a series of Persian poetry about the search for God.

Angels and Demons are immortal, be they true or lesser forms. They are reborn in their gods vault, which could mean different things depending on the god. I never allowed them to return to Erebus, deciding that the rebirth and recovery process would take a while (years in some cases). But that was mostly for practical concerns, it made little sence to fight and kill enemies if they would just return in a few seconds to fight again.

Most demons were after short term concerns, so killing an angel gave them what they wanted for a while. And since the compact controls how much influence a god can have getting a significant angel into Erebus was a big deal, losing him was a big loss. Basium however doesn't simply kill the demons he defeats, but has been gathering their souls like a divine jailor waiting for the judge.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

So.....where does he gather them? Are they of any use in the mean time?

I just thought it could be interesting to make his hammer (which is a piece of equipment in my version) cause its user to gain strength from killing demons (similar to how Ira work). (Schema changes by Grey Fox that are still in FF would make this possible). I was also thinking it could be good if units killed this way were somehow stopped from from becoming Manes. Would adding "if not iAttacker.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_MALLEUS_VINDEX')):" where it checks if the unit can become a Mane work?

 

[Ksi]

The Angel pedia entry is a quote from the Masnavi, a series of Persian poetry about the search for God.

Angels and Demons are immortal, be they true or lesser forms. They are reborn in their gods vault, which could mean different things depending on the god. I never allowed them to return to Erebus, deciding that the rebirth and recovery process would take a while (years in some cases). But that was mostly for practical concerns, it made little sence to fight and kill enemies if they would just return in a few seconds to fight again.

Most demons were after short term concerns, so killing an angel gave them what they wanted for a while. And since the compact controls how much influence a god can have getting a significant angel into Erebus was a big deal, losing him was a big loss. Basium however doesn't simply kill the demons he defeats, but has been gathering their souls like a divine jailor waiting for the judge.

Masnavi, is highly influenced by neo-platonic idealogy. The becoming one with the unmoved mover is a very Aristotelian idea and Plotinus has the whole heirarachy of being (including The One, Demiurge, Angels, etc.) It mixed quite a bit with Persia in Hellenic times. So at one point joining the One was a very popular idea. However much this applies to FFH however is up to debate.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

one word. Gnosis

 

[MrUnderhill]

Basium however doesn't simply kill the demons he defeats, but has been gathering their souls like a divine jailor waiting for the judge.

Hmm, that's interesting. So Basium can manipulate souls once he's on Erebus? That makes me wonder if it works both ways.
Is this perhaps the reason that good souls are pressed into the Mercurians' service, despite the possibility that they may have never heard of (or even opposed) the Mercurians in life?

 

[xxHammerxx]

Hmm, id like to think that daemons and angels that are killed would not go back into creation, as I thought perhaps only the direct followers of Hyborem and Basium were those to break the compact, and that all new angels/daemons are simply stuck in creation due to the archangels' intervention.