The Skeleton Infrastructure Strategy

[Artichoker]

I just tried this in my current online game...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=289066

This strategy involves using Caste System to allow running an SE without having that many buildings (namely, Markets and Grocers). In my current game, I am using the specialists while running Representation and Pacifism to increase research and GPP generation.

After Pacifism, I plan on running Organized Religion to enhance building production, while switching population from specialists to higher hammer tiles.


I can see some strong points in this strategy:

1) more hammers available in medieval era for military units

This is typically done under Slavery, where the whip is available to enhance military production.

2) multiple specializations for each city based on the current civic

To elaborate on this point, each city acts as a production city for military, and then switches to a GP farm during Pacifism. After Pacifism, the city again switches back to a production city for buildings during Organized Religion.


Basically, there are 3 phases during the timeline of this strategy:

1) Slavery Phase

This phase involves military buildup, aided by the whip.


2) Pacifism Phase

A switch to Caste System and Pacifism marks the second phase, which focuses on using specialists to generate GPP (and extra research, if using Representation).


3) Builder Phase

A switch to Organized Religion marks the third phase, which focuses on building all types of buildings (preferably during peacetime).



Has anyone tried this strategy before? What are your experiences with it?

 

[Bleys]

Speaking for myself, I dont usually build markets for the ability to create Merchant specialists. I build them because that city is high in commerce or I need the happiness from the building (or, as is often the case, both). Same with grocers, if a city has a ton of room under the health cap and is a production city, the grocer can wait, but a commerce city or a city that is getting polluted gets those grocers up fast. Now, since most commerce cities are kind of light on hammers, I tend to use the whip to get them done.

Of course, thats me, my style. I play the "early SE, shifting to CE as the stronger civics/techs for Cottages become available" game (Free Speech and Printing Press). I tend to stay in Slavery and OR for large chunks of the game, switching to Pacifism and/or military techs during golden ages or as needed for the game-plan. I rarely build the Mids anymore, mostly because I prefer fractal/M&S/B&S maps where the GLH is king (very very hard and wasteful to try for both)

 

[DaveMcW]

Caste System is great in multiplayer, where whoever has the most population wins after 120 turns.

If you anticipate getting to the industrial age, you'll want to add cottages. Cottages don't require infrastructure either...

 

[oyzar]

I've certanly used Pacifism in the midgame to get alot of great people and i have actually used OR afterwards to get loads of buildings(factories!!) everywhere. Not anywhere near all kind of buildings though. There was also a period of theocracy in the middle to get more XP on my units, did i mention i was spiritual? I also combined serfdom with OR to get my new cities fastest possible up and running as i didn't need slavery past granaries when i didn't want to whip away any of those 5 yield workshops...

Also when you say online games alot of people think about multiplayer...

@ DaveMcW there are alot of mp games where it doesn't end after 120 turns...

 

[Artichoker]

Speaking for myself, I dont usually build markets for the ability to create Merchant specialists. I build them because that city is high in commerce or I need the happiness from the building (or, as is often the case, both). Same with grocers, if a city has a ton of room under the health cap and is a production city, the grocer can wait, but a commerce city or a city that is getting polluted gets those grocers up fast. Now, since most commerce cities are kind of light on hammers, I tend to use the whip to get them done.

My strategy is almost like yours...except the whip that you do during Slavery is used for units instead of a Market.

Maybe it's because I usually play Aggressive leaders, where Barracks are half-price, but I find that even commerce cities can squeeze out 2 or 3 military units during a critical war period.

I've also whipped out Markets before, but I'm experimenting with saving the very last whip to build up that city's population instead, where the city can act as a hybrid commerce/specialist city.

That's where Caste System comes in, and the idea is to move past Slavery, which has the tendency of limiting population.

Of course, thats me, my style. I play the "early SE, shifting to CE as the stronger civics/techs for Cottages become available" game (Free Speech and Printing Press). I tend to stay in Slavery and OR for large chunks of the game, switching to Pacifism and/or military techs during golden ages or as needed for the game-plan. I rarely build the Mids anymore, mostly because I prefer fractal/M&S/B&S maps where the GLH is king (very very hard and wasteful to try for both)

I agree that long-term Pacifism is weakened without Representation, but this is more a matter of the half-full/half-empty glass comparison. In my opinion, the glass is full with Represenation and Pacifism, and half-full with only Pacifism.

For the early part of the game, however, I tend to focus on city growth, because under Slavery your cities need to constantly recover from the whip, which means there is less food available for specialists.

After an army is successfully put together, the need for hammers for military becomes less and it becomes more economical to use some pop count for specialists.

In the 3rd phase of my plan, pop count moves from specialists to high-hammer tiles. This can also include cottages to leverage the CE civics.

 

[Artichoker]

I've certanly used Pacifism in the midgame to get alot of great people and i have actually used OR afterwards to get loads of buildings(factories!!) everywhere. Not anywhere near all kind of buildings though. There was also a period of theocracy in the middle to get more XP on my units, did i mention i was spiritual? I also combined serfdom with OR to get my new cities fastest possible up and running as i didn't need slavery past granaries when i didn't want to whip away any of those 5 yield workshops...

That's basically the strategy I'm outlining above. The use of Slavery/Caste System/Serfdom is flexible, although using Caste System allows for more specialists without the normally required buildings (such as Markets and Grocers).

Without Caste System, you can run 4 specialists by building a Library, Temple, and a Courthouse, but for high-food cities with capacity for 6 or more specialists, even 4 specialists is limiting.

Another chioce, of course, is Emancipation, for the transition from SE to CE in the late game. The key is getting Democracy in a timely manner, but with correct timing I'd imagine the results can be impressive.

A successful Liberalism race can be used to grab Nationalism, for instance, which can be immediately followed by Constitution. Even without Pyramids, there is a window for running Pacifism + Representation. Then, work towards Democracy and move from Caste System to Emancipation. It takes away focus from the Renaissance military techs, but if you can afford it I think it can be consistently pulled off.

 

[oyzar]

Actually i workshopped / watermilled over the place by the time i was in OR so neither caste nor slavery nor emancipation was particulary usefull(not to mention that techning democracy is dead end).

 

[Indiansmoke]

Caste System is great in multiplayer, where whoever has the most population wins after 120 turns.

If you anticipate getting to the industrial age, you'll want to add cottages. Cottages don't require infrastructure either...

I cannot see how caste system enhances bigger cities...I would say the opposite. You need to work food to grow, not run specialists.

If you don't need slavery (because you have enough troops) then serfdom is ideal for these type of games (low upkeep and faster development)

 

[Iranon]

I prefer doing exactly the opposite - almost total focus on or for , then run specialists once I have my infrastructure up.

Getting my research done earlier doesn't give me hammer bonuses. Getting the infrastructure first gives me a bonus on my research/gold... I pretty much only deviate from this when there's a tech with an inherent bonus in reach (e.g. currency) or I need to hurry up to win a prize.

As such, I rarely use Caste System before State Property allows some ridiculous workshops (if for some reason I don't have killer corps by then)

 

[silverbullet]

Well, it sound pretty similar to most games where you don't build the great library.

1) Expansion phase
2) caste system+pacifism to get enough great scientists to bulb liberalism
3) Organized+slavery for infrastructure buildup
4) Theocracy+nationalism for renaissance war.

In games where you manage to get the great library, you can stay in slavery for the whole game (still use pacifism) since you can run 4 great scientists in 1 city. With NE and pacifism you will get enough GS for bulbing liberalism.

Pyramids are actually not required for this strategy, since the main advantage of scientists is the GPP. They could help if the map is very rich in food(can run many specialists) and you have stone, but generally I favour expansion over pyramids.

 

[Artichoker]

I prefer doing exactly the opposite - almost total focus on or for , then run specialists once I have my infrastructure up.

Getting my research done earlier doesn't give me hammer bonuses. Getting the infrastructure first gives me a bonus on my research/gold... I pretty much only deviate from this when there's a tech with an inherent bonus in reach (e.g. currency) or I need to hurry up to win a prize.

As such, I rarely use Caste System before State Property allows some ridiculous workshops (if for some reason I don't have killer corps by then)

It's not completely opposite...it seems that you are using a 2-phase strategy rather than a 3-phase strategy.

However, if you compare both of our strategies, your Phase 1 is like the combination of Phase 1 and Phase 3 of my strategy. The main difference is that I've split the production into 2 different phases, building and non-building, so that the buildings can mostly be assigned to Phase 3 and benefit from OR. Of course, Phase 1 will also include some buildings--the "Skeleton Infrastructure"--which is roughly a Granary, Barracks, Library, Courthouse (or Temple), and Monastery, with my strategy. For the top science city (usually the capital), it also includes an Academy for an extra +50% science.

 

[Artichoker]

Well, it sound pretty similar to most games where you don't build the great library.

1) Expansion phase
2) caste system+pacifism to get enough great scientists to bulb liberalism
3) Organized+slavery for infrastructure buildup
4) Theocracy+nationalism for renaissance war.

In games where you manage to get the great library, you can stay in slavery for the whole game (still use pacifism) since you can run 4 great scientists in 1 city. With NE and pacifism you will get enough GS for bulbing liberalism.

Pyramids are actually not required for this strategy, since the main advantage of scientists is the GPP. They could help if the map is very rich in food(can run many specialists) and you have stone, but generally I favour expansion over pyramids.

The strategy I'm using now (as outlined above) is almost like yours, with one small twist--I've extended the expansion phase to include military expansion in the medieval era. This is typically done by adopting Vassalage and using the stronger units to power through enemy resistance despite having tech and numerical parity.

As a result, my switch to Caste System+Pacifism tends to happen later on, sometimes even after the Liberalism race (whether it is won or lost). The goal of generating GPs would then be to tech through the more expensive techs like Scientific Method and Steam Power, which require a larger economy to complete in a satisfactory amount of time.

As far as the importance of Representation, I'm beginning to believe that even without the Pyramids, you can time the switch to Pacifism right after gaining Constitution (with Nationalism as the free tech from Liberalism). This means that not only do the specialists generate +100% GPP, but also +3 beakers apiece.

 

[Artichoker]

Actually i workshopped / watermilled over the place by the time i was in OR so neither caste nor slavery nor emancipation was particulary usefull(not to mention that techning democracy is dead end).

Well, with enough workshops it seems that Caste System would take the lead over the other civics, due to the +1 hammer bonus for workshops.

In that case, the civics change for Phase 3 can be saved for another category to minimize anarchy.

 

[silverbullet]

Oh, I see.
This is a very different strategy then. I have never done a medieval war. I was always afraid to lose liberalism and stay behind. If I have 6 cities I usually focus on getting a military advantage during renaissance. I can see the point of having a medieval war with Toku though, Samurais might provide just the enough advantage if you have peaceful neighbours.
Great library can really help this strategy. With 4 scientists and NE you should be able to bulb philosphy and trade it around for many useful techs, later bulbing education and grabbing nationalism from liberalism. My feeling is that great library is more important than pyramids here. In the early game it will net much more beakers (if you take early bulbing+trading into account), especially on higher levels, where you have more trade oppurtunities.

 

[Joshua368]

Medieval wars aren't that bad... if the situation isn't right for an early rush or late classical war, macemen and trebuchets often mark my first conflict. Usually the war is a swift concise battle so I don't fall behind in the liberalism race... quickly take some key cities, expanding my borders and crippling an enemy, before taking peace. (possibly vassalization) War weariness becomes an issue so you can't stay long without dropping your science.

The extra land and usually provide a nice boost for renaisance research, expecially if you aim for great land or a good holy city.

 

[Artichoker]

Oh, I see.
This is a very different strategy then. I have never done a medieval war. I was always afraid to lose liberalism and stay behind. If I have 6 cities I usually focus on getting a military advantage during renaissance. I can see the point of having a medieval war with Toku though, Samurais might provide just the enough advantage if you have peaceful neighbours.

The medieval variation seems to fit leaders that match a certain profile:

1) A strong medieval era unit (such as the Samurai).

2) A military trait such as Protective or Aggressive

So, based on this profile I would rate Tokugawa as a really good fit for the medieval variation. Charlemagne is probably another very good fit, thanks to the Landsknecht UU and Rathaus UB (-75% maintenance). Tokugawa doesn't have a strong early UB, but he has dual military traits in addition to the Samurai.

Great library can really help this strategy. With 4 scientists and NE you should be able to bulb philosphy and trade it around for many useful techs, later bulbing education and grabbing nationalism from liberalism. My feeling is that great library is more important than pyramids here. In the early game it will net much more beakers (if you take early bulbing+trading into account), especially on higher levels, where you have more trade oppurtunities.

I see it as a problem of having the right resource. Using Pacifism is better when you don't have access to Marble, since the +100% GPP bonus in multiple cities virtually eliminates the need for National Epic during Pacifism.

With Marble, however, you can build the GL before building the NE. So, yes, in that sense the Great Library is a really good fit for this strategy because it provides you the opportunity to invest your access to Marble in more useful production (namely, the GL).

With Stone and no Marble, however, I would prefer the Pyramids over both the Great Library and National Epic, because of the research boost from Representation.

 

[silverbullet]

I agree that marble is essential. However given the choice, I would settle near marble rather than stone (going for GLib/NE rather than mids).
Also, if I have no marble and no stone, I might still build the Glib/NE (not always, but with a lot of forests I might), but not pyramids.

 

[tempuraki]

I agree that marble is essential. However given the choice, I would settle near marble rather than stone (going for GLib/NE rather than mids).
Also, if I have no marble and no stone, I might still build the Glib/NE (not always, but with a lot of forests I might), but not pyramids.

If I plan on building both Glib and the Pyramids, I would pick stone over marble becasue GLib is much easier to build than the Pyramids, AIs never seem interested in researching Literature.

 

[nullspace]

Basically, there are 3 phases during the timeline of this strategy:

1) Slavery Phase

This phase involves military buildup, aided by the whip.


2) Pacifism Phase

A switch to Caste System and Pacifism marks the second phase, which focuses on using specialists to generate GPP (and extra research, if using Representation).


3) Builder Phase

A switch to Organized Religion marks the third phase, which focuses on building all types of buildings (preferably during peacetime).

Why have just three phases in the game? With a spiritual leader, you can go to a new phase whenever you want. This makes a SE very flexible because you can change your whole civ to military production, building production, growth, or science/gpp just by switching civics and which tiles are being worked. Beeline a military tech, then whip or draft units in all your cities, next rebuild infrastructure in captured cites, and when the war weariness is gone, go to fast growth. It also lets you react quickly to unexpected problems or opportunities.

I especially like this strategy with Montezuma because he has less unhappiness from whipping, and the aggressive trait improves drafted units.

 

[Artichoker]

Why have just three phases in the game? With a spiritual leader, you can go to a new phase whenever you want. This makes a SE very flexible because you can change your whole civ to military production, building production, growth, or science/gpp just by switching civics and which tiles are being worked. Beeline a military tech, then whip or draft units in all your cities, next rebuild infrastructure in captured cites, and when the war weariness is gone, go to fast growth. It also lets you react quickly to unexpected problems or opportunities.

I especially like this strategy with Montezuma because he has less unhappiness from whipping, and the aggressive trait improves drafted units.

True, Spiritual leaders are very strong when it comes to making lots of civics changes, but having Spiritual as a trait also means that one trait slot is not available for a different trait.

So having a 3-phase plan for non-Spiritual leaders will help them maximize the trait they have instead of Spiritual.