The Sword of Osman

[woopdeedoo]

What's going on in Ankara? We should have had the B missionary already going to Ed. Or is it a secret mission, that one...!?

I don't understand the logic of going for peace with KK when we are having a bunch of of axes and spears ready to pillage and raze. W, could you, please, tell me of any other reasons but getting rid of the red face in Ista? And I concur with Cam on the library in Ista in the stead of the temple; or we may lose all our chances to implement plan B (the GrSc there) if Plan A fails.

Well, we still have LOADS of units so we may as well crush him. Sorry FiveRings, I was so absorbed in playing the best turns I could and getting everything down that I missed your posts while I was working. There was no Budd Missionary on the way to Erdine. It was still being built.

[EDIT]
Btw, reading my own turn report and the previous PPP, I think the 2nd GPr bulb can still happen, if we want. The Budd Temple is up, iirc, but starvation is severe. We need farms. Also, I don't know how many turns from 25AD to (when we need DR) are left. Slow tech will be faster but bulbing it will allow us to research tech's that actually do handy stuff. So sorry for any PPP deviations I made, it all just seemed correct at the time.
[/EDIT]

[2ndEDIT]
Also, we need more workers for those horrible Jungles.
[/2ndEDIT]

 

[woopdeedoo]

The Save: (I thought I had attached it but clearly didn't)

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks for the report.

Divine Right looks researchable but 'probably' no longer 'bulb-able' to complete

Good news being that we can self-research our way to Divine Right from here given that payout from The Parthenon, and it seems to me that we can shoot to pop a Great Scientist for an Academy in Istanbul instead of a Great Prophet for bulbing.

Maths, Iron Working, Monarchy, Alphabet, Literature!

Some excellent work on the trades - loads of useful technologies. Again, I wouldn't have taken Fishing, Archery, or Animal Husbandry in trades, but 'there you go' ...

WFYABTA

Saladin's at WFYABTA, and Alexander (Tokugawa?) won't trade with us anyway. Candidates with such a low tolerance to our trading (iNoTechTradeThreshold of '5' in Civ4LeaderHeadInfos.xml) include this cheerful lot;

Alexander, Bismarck, Brennus, Genghis Khan, Huayna Capac, Isabella, Julius Caesar, Louis XIV, Mao Zedong, Mehmed II, Montezuma, Qin Shi Huang, Ragnar, Shaka, Stalin and Tokugawa.​

Civics

We can swap civics:

With no State Religion (and I'd be reluctant to take one at this point) and questionable need to build Missionaries to spread religion in light of other priorities, I'm not convinced that Organised Religion is required.

The other is Hereditary Rule, and despite the turn of Anarchy (setting our Divine Right grab back a turn) I think that it's worth consideration. We could well be doing some whipping of Catapults and War Elephants soon-ish, and a few happy faces from city garrisons could help a lot.​

Thebes vs. Ankara

With Thebes being 'Wonder central' we can possibly see Ankara flip at some point. If we want to keep it, I guess we should place more units there to minimise the chance of revolt. Hopefully Thebes will be ours before we face losing the city. I'd prefer to hang on to it, but we'd get massive 'brownie points' with Egypt if we gifted it to him, and can focus on attacking other nations.

War

I can't agree that right now we're in a position to attack Mongolia without making ourselves extraordinarily vulnerable to our other neighbours. 5 Axes (1 underway) and 6 Spears barely makes an invasion force in itself, and that's without leaving our empire completely exposed.

Iron

Very disappointing only not to get any Iron in our borders, but also that Ramesses does (potential Crossbows), and there are Iron deposits dotted around Arabia. Persia also has access to Iron.

Trade

The one technology trade I can see 'on the horizon' is Theology <> Construction. Should we pursue this if it becomes a possibility? It opens up Paper to the AI, but the AI often considers researching Paper as a low priority tech' option.

Workers

I'm really a bit confused by some of our Worker actions. Building a road so we can trade Horses to Saladin or Kublai (who are the only leaders who seemingly don't have Horses) is perhaps asking for trouble. There are Workers clearing away a non-riverside jungle right next to a Rice tile that needs clearing and farming. Edirne got a riverside Grassland farm up by clearing away jungle - but there is a non-jungle riverside Grassland tile that could have been farmed faster without the need to clear jungle. Plains farms are 'notoriously' 'average', Ankara does have a riverside Grassland there, although as per above, I worry that this city will quickly flip anyway and am inclined to send our Worker elsewhere.

Specialisation

I think that we can also start thinking a little about city specialisation, and where we might be placing National Wonders (esp. now that the National Epic is an option).

PPP

I'm happy to do a pre-play plan, but would be happier to hear of your thoughts.

 

[FiveRings]

Sorry guys, haven't had time to look at the save.

I won't have time to look at it till tomorrow evening, so I better leave to you to make the planning, if you think it's better to speed up.

Some general observations:
1. I trust Cam to have assessed correctly that we can't bulb the DR, so, let's do our best to get it thru our own researching, ie, a Gr Sc in Ista.

2. I need the safe to calculate the VERY rough number of terms we need to subjugate Alex and Ram, anfd with Ram such a powerhouse, we can expect some more settlements up his sleeve. I think we won't have enough time to get the DR, build the HS and subjugate both A and R if we digress, incl onto Sal.

3. All of this makes our odds quite bleak, and we need make some high-risk decisions if we still want to win the game. One way to go, it seems , is to concentrate on three goals in the mid-term: razing Sal's towns that overhang Ista, attacking thereafter Ram, and keeping off our back KK and Alex. If Cam has figured it out correctly that Cyrus and Alex might have some tense love going, then we might help, preferably Cyrus, providing him with the resources or the techs to fight with Alex. I am not good at thie, but I have the feeling that we need to start slowly supporting Cyrus even now, keeping as much chips as possible till they really engage in war. I have no ideas re KK, except giving him back towns. Sorry to return to this again, but it was not helpful to ASK him for peace. I am sure he'll get into the fray as soon as we start another war: he is simply no match for Ram without Keshiks, and the AI can figure this I think. WE have taken away his precious, and we don't have the Jans yet.

4. The alternative, as implied by Cam, is to gift Ankara to Ram - maybe after getting some axes out of it in the meantime - and go after Sal/Alex. I don't see how we can kill Ram after that - and in time - and some of the warmongers can declare while "pleased", but do not oppose to this, as I evidently am not capable of assessing the situation correctly.

5. Yes, HE decision -time. But where, that is the question, and w/o the map to look at, I pass.

6. Judging from how we proceed up to now, I think it's best to have Cam lay down briefly his own PPP that might give us some insights into the thinking process - if he feels like that. I know plans are not carved in stone but I also hate speculations that are not probed by action: this is time simply thrown away without the compensation of emotion.

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks for the post, Five Rings.

I'm quite happy to wait for you to have a look at the save. As per your points above;

(1.) If Edirne had another population point and another farm up right now, then it could just make it by running the two Priests, but it will take time to grow the population and build the farm (involving taking the citizens off Priest duty and on to farms), and that will take too much time. We can self-research it now by running at 60%, but a Library in Istanbul and a few Scientists there would give the tech' rate an important further boost.

(2.) I am assuming that we're going to be in turns of '25 years per turn' for a while yet, therefore we have 57 turns to deal with Alexander (now that Cyrus mightn't attack him at all; "We couldn't betray our close friends"), and 59 turns to deal with Ramesses. Because they're remote, we will need to tackle one sooner than that, and then swing the army over to the other side of our empire to deal with the other in time.

(3.) In terms of global diplomacy, it's likely to be quite tough to make anything much work, as there's so much 'warmonger respect' floating around and now it seems that just about everyone (that is; Mansa Musa, Saladin, Cyrus, and Ramesses) has Hereditary Rule as their favourite civic, so they're giving each other positive modifiers for that too. So brace yourself for this ... in our 'random personalities' game; Mansa Musa, Saladin, Cyrus, and Ramesses are all from this list of leaders whose favourite civic is Hereditary Rule;

Alexander, Catherine, Huyana Capac, Louis XIV, and Ragnar.​

I suppose one thing in our favour is that we can jump into Hereditary Rule ourselves, and start gaining a little favour that way. Maybe Cyrus will start trading with us, for instance (Metal Casting <> Construction ?).

I would largely ignore Kublai Kahn. He's down to three cities and is a 'builder' by nature I'm guessing. We should keep some units in Turfan in case he gets a bit 'bold' (maybe even Walls), but a counter-strike seems unlikely to me ('famous last words?' ).

(4.) I just don't know what to do about Saladin, but I think that our first order of business should be to work toward a Catapult - War Elephant army, and the 'who' might become apparent later. If I had to make a choice right now, I'd go for Ramesses (look at those Wonders in Thebes!) who's starting to get a bit of momentum on both the power chart and in score. I think Egypt will be a bit tougher than Greece, but taking Greece will give us borders with Persia, which could be another headache.

I'm starting to think that the era of pumping out Axes for invasion purposes is pretty well past us. They make handy counter units to other Axes, Phalanxes, and Macemen, but I see War Elephants and Catapults as the foundation of our next invasion.

(5.) Edirne looks like a good unit pump. We haven't quite got that Level 4 unit yet, but could get one with the next conflict as woopdeedoo pointed out as we're close to our first Great General who could be attached to a unit. I have other thoughts on city specialisation, but am curious on the roster's views.

(6.) I'll hold off doing a pre-play plan until FiveRings has checked out the game and woopdeedoo can offer some reflective thoughts on her turnset.

Key points for me would be to flip into Hereditary Rule, try to get Construction out of Cyrus, build a Chariot to check out Egypt, continue to build up Istanbul as a science hub, press on with Divine Right. Archers and Chariots are pretty cheap for Hereditary Rule happiness, so I'd be looking to knock out a few of these from some of our more -focused cities so we can get our population up a bit ... and let's face it, on a warmonger-heavy map, some protection in our border cities wouldn't be a bad move.

 

[FiveRings]

Thanks for being so kindly considerate, Cam! Tomorrow morning at the latest I'll come up with the proverbial cents. I wouldn't be able to add very much to your comments, and all of them seem very well-thought and grounded.

One thing springs up right now: without knights we have something like 7 turns only to move the army from the East boder to the West one (while reading this and below, pls, keep in mind that I can't see the map, so all these numbers are highly speculative!), Alex will have no less than 6-8 towns by the time we can wage war on him, so, provided we get Feudalism and the ability to vassalize, and his willingness to do it, and we build roads to the border, and he spawns his next towns closer to us, we'll need 11-15 moves to vassalize / kill him (move to his first town>take it>split the army into two>take town 2 and 3>take town 4 [and 5>take town 6, if there are more than 6 towns), let's reserve a couple of moves for healing or just in case, then it's reasonable to set aside 13-17 'Alex' moves. Then it's 20-24 moves after Ram is vanquished. Ram might have less towns with this wondermongering, but I guess 5 is to expect by the time we invade. Hardly Feudalism will be available at the time, so we need to take at least 4 towns before we move the bulk of the army (or what remains of it) towards Alex (hoping to get enough reinforcements to finish him at the time we finish Alex). So: 15 (13+2) "Ram" moves. So, 28-32, or 30-ish moves for the required warmongering, and that is from the moment where the army is ready to attack on the Eastern border.
Now, I have forgotton how many moves we need to get Alex down, so I'll post, and then continue on the next reply.

 

[FiveRings]

Continuation

With 5 turns to assemble the army at the Eastern border, we have some 20 turns to get Construction and build the elecats - as per Cam. I don't know the level of hammers produced in each of our towns, but - even with some new trick of whipping - we'll be getting something like 4 cats and 2 phants every 3-4turns. This might be very optimistic: I tried the double whip with Swordsmen, and it didn't work: I was always getting the 40 hammers needed for 1 Swordsman per 2 pop loss.
So, even if we can get the C next turn, and start whipping elecats right away, we'll be having 8+2 in 2 turns, 16+6 in 6 turns, 24+10 in 12turns.

Bottomline: we have 8-10 turns to get Construction, do some minor chores and start whipping the elecats. Every move above and beyond adds risk to disaccomplish (to put it mildly).

Again: this is very rough, and need fine-tuning based on geography and hammer production.

Ah, and so that we don't have later problems with the workers: let's not forget that roads are to be built to the East and then the West border.

 

[woopdeedoo]

Workers

I'm really a bit confused by some of our Worker actions. Building a road so we can trade Horses to Saladin or Kublai (who are the only leaders who seemingly don't have Horses) is perhaps asking for trouble. There are Workers clearing away a non-riverside jungle right next to a Rice tile that needs clearing and farming. Edirne got a riverside Grassland farm up by clearing away jungle - but there is a non-jungle riverside Grassland tile that could have been farmed faster without the need to clear jungle. Plains farms are 'notoriously' 'average', Ankara does have a riverside Grassland there, although as per above, I worry that this city will quickly flip anyway and am inclined to send our Worker elsewhere.

Hey Guys.

The worker action was not necessarily aimed at hooking up horses for trade right now. The original POA was to complete a shorter route to Ista. The horses popped afterwards and I reckoned, since this worker is in the area, may as well road and hook up. That was my thinking at the time.

 

[FiveRings]

continuation (#2)-cum-correction (#1)

Ok, looked at the save.

It's grimmer than I thought - too low production potential, farther and widespreader Alex, much bigger and crazy researching Ram (on the positive side, Cam, could this mean that Ram's not a warmonger? Can't remember a warmonger teching and wondering like that!)

Yah, definitely we need to take on Ram ASAP, as in the short-time: we won't have the type of units to overrun him (we might already be there, but I'll give it a try no-matter-what), in the mid-term: we won't get the Sophia; in the long-term: we are lost (in a much more sinister way than in THAT serial).

We need to get everything onto research/military right now: I would suggest: Ista to lib after axe; Ed to forge (I haven't put down the current prod, so, just check whether we need to wait, but if this is a monastery - as I seem to remember - and it's a LONG shot - change right now); Ank: switch immediately to lib, no need of temple, we won't need that anyway if we don't get DR and squash Ram; Besh: lib after forge; Kara: whip the lib under construction ASAP; Turf: forge after whatever is there (can't read my own scribbles!) and DO clean the rice there!).

I would go right away for HR : #1 for Cam's better IRs suggestion, #2 for the additional happiness in the bigger cities. BUT ALSO - AND SIMULTANEOUSLY - Theocracy for the unit EXP. I would rather go for OR for the next 10 turns, but this is a luxury we seem we can't afford (losing a whole turn then, if you think I am wrong, let's discuss it!)

We will need two armies (meaning branching, not numbers, but from what I saw, we need much loftier armies than what was my initial thinking and speculating! aside from NEEDING MORE TIME to get them on the ground!!!) for Ram, and three armies for Alex [depending on whether well leave the NE town alive for some time, the bad news being that it should be a big old one: it's on our earliest maps. Athens might well be around the lake, judging from the earliest maps as well). Actually, I think we need to start building the army earlier than I thought: Ram IS formidable, even if this will be mostly the # of cities to conquer and distance to cover, if we are lucky enough to have a developper who hasn't built up a decent army, a chance we have to take anyway.

Tech-wise: evidently, we need to switch to construction, or we won't have it in time to start the invasion into Egypt, and nobody wants to trade it wit us - I wouldn't, if I were in their shoes, as well. If someone is willing to trade it, we should grab it, but I don't think we'll be so lucky... So, what about the DR?! Due to our chaotic implemebtation of plans, we might still need to bulb it squandering 2/3rds of the bulbs of a 2nd GrPr 9if at all possible!) but that's the destiny of the short-sighted... Well, that's how I see it, and if I am wrong, I'll be happy to be persuaded to the contrary...

Workers/Miicromanaging: Guys, if you tell me how I can have both the map and this forum's page before my eyes, I'll go into this as well, but I seem too overwhelmed right now to start multiple switching in order to discuss this. It ain't hard: grow / bulb-prepare for 7-8 turns, grow and whip army for whatever the game lasts...

Bottomline: Prey that Sal be nice, and do whatever he wants, sorry for my not giving him the ivory several turns ago, that would have stirred up somewhat the situ maybe, and could have prevented him from attacking us, which is inevitable, as far as I can judge....

Cam, where do you get that they all have the HR as preferred civic? I wasn't able to find the clues. If they are in the worldbuilder: just tell me so and don't elaborate; I understand nothing of XML or whatever, Basic WAS the only language I HAD some inkling about, no more...

I'll read Cam's post for some more bubbling and asking, and post again.

 

[FiveRings]

...I would largely ignore Kublai Kahn. He's down to three cities and is a 'builder' by nature I'm guessing. We should keep some units in Turfan in case he gets a bit 'bold' (maybe even Walls), but a counter-strike seems unlikely to me ('famous last words?' )..

Right. And even if it were, we don't have the time to do anything about this now.

(4.) I just don't know what to do about Saladin, but I think that our first order of business should be to work toward a Catapult - War Elephant army, and the 'who' might become apparent later. If I had to make a choice right now, I'd go for Ramesses (look at those Wonders in Thebes!) who's starting to get a bit of momentum on both the power chart and in score. I think Egypt will be a bit tougher than Greece, but taking Greece will give us borders with Persia, which could be another headache.

I'm starting to think that the era of pumping out Axes for invasion purposes is pretty well past us. They make handy counter units to other Axes, Phalanxes, and Macemen, but I see War Elephants and Catapults as the foundation of our next invasion.

Ram is top on the list, agreed! But I wouldn't stop pumping up axes where we have nothing VERY tempting tech-wise and hammer-wise to buld, though: might not have the time for an elecat army.

(5.) Edirne looks like a good unit pump. We haven't quite got that Level 4 unit yet, but could get one with the next conflict as woopdeedoo pointed out as we're close to our first Great General who could be attached to a unit. I have other thoughts on city specialisation, but am curious on the roster's views.

Well, under the circumstances, I don't think it matters very much: we just need to grow, bulb, hammer, whip, get army. Specialization will be something to think about after we get Ram down, at the soonest. So, whatever you do but not forgetting about the grow-bulb-..., is OK with me...[/QUOTE]


(QUOTE=Cam_H;10444166](6.) I'll hold off doing a pre-play plan until FiveRings has checked out the game and woopdeedoo can offer some reflective thoughts on her turnset. .[/QUOTE]

BTW, W the Parthenon was smart, I wouldn't have thought about it speeding up the GrPr or getting us gold, if it doesn't happen.


(QUOTE=Cam_H;10444166](Key points for me would be to flip into Hereditary Rule, try to get Construction out of Cyrus, build a Chariot to check out Egypt, continue to build up Istanbul as a science hub, press on with Divine Right. Archers and Chariots are pretty cheap for Hereditary Rule happiness, so I'd be looking to knock out a few of these from some of our more -focused cities so we can get our population up a bit ... and let's face it, on a warmonger-heavy map, some protection in our border cities wouldn't be a bad move.[/QUOTE]
FLIP, FLIP, but to both HR and THEO!
No chariots , do the recon using spears, you have enough turns to search for the city 5 and 6, and for iron on the way back. BTW, we might need to move all available units - but for the wariors and cap-keepers where applicable - to Ram (well if you can figure the turns needed and micromanage- the better: will keep high cap of growth). ANYWAY, as I am constantly thrashed on Monarch, take all this cum grano salis, but do edxplicate the rationale, so that I could learn...

Good luck! We all need it!

 

[FiveRings]

OK, 1) forget my gibberish about bulbing the DR, we seem to have only the option of research now (but see my note about turns' time-span); 2) forget my suggestion about immediate switch to Construction: if we can get it within the next 4-5 turns thru trade, this might be better; 3) switching immediately to HR and a religious civic stands, frankly I can't assess the pros and cons of OR and Theocracy and compare the totals, in the morning the #2 exp don't seem that much compared to the +25% in building speed, but the latter refers to buildings only, and we will enjoy it for 10-ish turns only, so the grand total seems in favor of THEO; pity we can't convert at the same time, or it would be good to get Sal's religion, we don't want to lose a separate turn on this, though; 4) moving soldiers into Ank strengthens a bit our standing there, as pointed by Cam, and gets them closer to the border - we need the soldiers for HR-cap raising, but we might need also every soldier we have in the invasion, cats whipping the way of axes might work as they are cheap (any experience there, anyone?) and we might use their suicidal power to weaken Ram's crossbows or whatever for our axes and spears, actually, we might mass-move them towards Egypt later to use them against 2-tier cities, and till that time they'll keep up the happiness cap which then will not need as much propping once the whip is up, so, bottomline: move few to Ank, place the rest in higher growth cities for the time being, once we start whipping, start moving the cap-proppers towards Egypt; 5) workers needed to boost food right now, but have to buid the road to Egypt's border: needs checking on the map, but I don't think we can have a two-headed attack there, all the roads (seem to) lead to Thebes (first), there won't be much time after that to move them to the West border and get them buid the tripple road to Alex (if we don't want to risk his city in our NE staying alive and producing HA or whatever, and I don't like the idea for sure).

Maybe we can give ourselves some more time for reflection at thgis point?! Seems out fate hangs on turn-count, however rough.

What I would do now:
1. make sure what the exact # of turns till required events is (might be change in turn span)
2. try to work out on the map the # of turns we need to get both pending invasions done in time and thus: the time we have to start building the elecat army (taking into consideration that it has to also move to the border), hence: the time to start researching Construction in case we don't get it thru trade within the next 4-5 moves or so (again depending onprviosuly referenced counting)
3. try to work out on the map how many turns we need for road-building towards Egypt (and I don't know the # of turns per each type of terrain), then how many truns we need to get to the West and build the three roads towards Alex's towns, come to the # of worker turns available for food-working, ascertain what can be improved and where, start with the improving job
4. try to get an idea about how many cats and phants we need to cripple Ram (I guess, we won't have the time to take all his cities) and howmany turns we might need to produce those (a big question mark here is also can we rely on units created during that war to carry out the war with Alex immediately thereafter, or we need to count in additional units just to be prepared to turn on him right after Ram)
5. try to get a clue about the Feudalism and vassaleage: whether we'll be able to get it while warring, whether that will be before we conquer more than 4 of his cities, does a warmonger agree to get that low status), on the side: if we are successful against Ram, we'll have the gold to push up research and get both Feudalism and Engineering in time, and I'll go the reverse order of research to use turns of after-whips to build the HS, but this will depend on the length of paths to these, too.
That's about it.

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks for all of that thought and feedback.

On Civics

I think that it's hard not to look at the Hereditary Rule switch, despite the turn of Anarchy.

In order for Organised Religion and Theocracy to work, we need to adopt a State Religion and have that State Religion present in the city to leverage the + or +XP bonus. Organised Religion does allow for Missionaries to be built without Monasteries, but as noted, building Missionaries isn't high priority for us now.

Therefore, if we want to leverage Organised Religion or Theocracy, do we adopt Buddhism to keep Saladin appeased? Is it worth it?

On 'Random Personalities' and the Hereditary Rule thing

This is unlikely to affect you in 'normal' play (unless you typically play with random personalities 'on', however we can get clues as to the 'real' identity of our rivals in several ways, one of which being their favourite civics.

(More on this in the spoiler)

Spoiler :

Notice that Alexander has only Hereditary Rule and Slavery as 'advanced' civics at the moment. No AI leader has Slavery as their favourite civic, so when other AIs consider that Alexander has chosen his civics wisely, they are referring to his choice of Hereditary Rule ...

However they only give this positive modifier when they share that same civic choice (that is, in this case, both tribes have to be in Hereditary Rule and the 'viewer' has Hereditary Rule as its favourite civic.

So let's look at relations toward Alexander by Saladin, Mansa Musa, Cyrus, and Ramesses II;

Therefore, these four tribes all have Hereditary Rule as their favourite civic.

As noted earlier, this means these leaders are from the following pool: Alexander, Catherine, Huyana Capac, Louis XIV, and Ragnar.

By checking C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Warlords\Assets\XML\Civilizations\CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml we can garner some extra clues on their behaviour.

All five of these leaders (Alexander, Catherine, Huyana Capac, Louis XIV, and Ragnar) have "2" warmonger respect (the maximum). Warmonger respect is a positive hidden modifier to stop the aggressive tribes all tearing each other apart at the beginning of the game.

Catherine is quite willing to trade (iNoTechTradeThreshold of "15") whereas the others are going to hit WFYABTA quickly (iNoTechTradeThreshold of "5").

Louis XIV and Huyana Capac are quite prone to pursuing Wonders (iWonderConstructRand of "50" and "40" respectively), and Catherine ("30") to a lesser extent.

... and so on.

Construction

I too would like to get Construction, and I'm hopeful of getting Cyrus to trade it to us. I'll swap civics to Hereditary Rule, and see where we stand. I might gift him Literature if we still can't get it in a deal, and maybe that will soften him up a bit. While I'm in less of a panic about our chances than FiveRings, I'm still concerned, and would like to get some decent units up and running soon.

Workers

Agree that we need to build an efficient road network in our empire for fast unit movement, and therefore a road to Argos (esp. a more direct route from Erdine to Argos) would be beneficial. Improving Edirine, getting the Rice below Turfan, another Mine in Beshbalik, etc. all 'on the agenda'.

Chariot

I'd like the one Chariot for exploring Egypt, but also these units make excellent Medics (hardly ever need to defend in a stack, 2 movement, cheap to build, can create Hereditary Rule happiness unlike a Scout).

Generally agree on the suggested builds, although Beshbalik and Karakorum probably don't need Libraries at the moment, but should focus on military.

Technology

I would like to trade Divine Right for Engineering (in time) so we can get going on the Hagia Sophia, but we may need to trade it for Machinery instead and hope that the following turn Divine Right isn't traded around, and we can get Engineering out of another AI. I'd also love to get Currency and Code of Laws for Theology to improve our finances.

I intend to play tomorrow. Please sing out if you're confused or disagreeable on any of this.

 

[FiveRings]

I'm OK with all of this, thanks for the insight on info about mutual regard and how you can glean the reasons for it!

I would risk getting Sal's reigion if it goes the same turn with the switch of civics (getting Ram hating us is no big deal, Alex is, but then, it might be better to have at least one of the three appeased, and it it is better that that one is the last on our list of future adversaries) but as this is not the case, I think, maybe we better wait with anything beyond the HR (I would postpone that too, if we can do without it and get Construction soon), so, if we can switch to Construction, and later return to DR and make it in time, then let's do it w/o HR. I am afraid, that we'll need to further lower the ratio of research/gold, and won't be able to get to DR in time, though, esp when we forgo the higher happiness cap following HR. For me it's a tough decision, and I have the feeling that in any case we are better with losing a turn, but getting the HR even w/o the side benefits of better relationships. Bottomline: if we can't both convert to Sal's religion AND switch civic, then le't go for HR only. If there is a way to do both in the same turn - I know no such way w/o the trait that allows for no anarchy - then let's switch to HR+Theo+convert.

 

[FiveRings]

Yes, let's educate Sal a bit, and the medic promotion is a fine reason to get the char, if we can't get it with the slower units.

I am looking forward to your report on the next 10-15 turns!

 

[Cam_H]

I've played and uploading videos of the turnset, however I've done a pre-turnset report that might be of interest.

We've got Divine Right and Islam was founded in Beshbalik. Traded Literacy to tech-hog Mansa for 220 that allowed us to run at a higher rate than 60%. Currently self-researching Construction (3 turns) but can get a 2-for-1 (I suspect) with Theology <> Construction and Theology <> Currency. We can trade Ivory to Cyrus, but he's Pleased with Alexander and we can't bribe him to attack. Otherwise, just did some tile development and city improvements. I opted not to go into Buddhism or any religious civics, and held off self-researching Construction in the hope that we could get it in a trade ... which essentially didn't happen until the last turn of my turnset. Only one city (Beshbalik) however is ready to pump out units at this point, and I got it building a Worker instead.

Save and video report below.

More later.

 

[FiveRings]

I've played and uploading videos of the turnset, however I've done a pre-turnset report that might be of interest.

We've got Divine Right and Islam was founded in Beshbalik. Traded Literacy to tech-hog Mansa for 220 that allowed us to run at a higher rate than 60%. Currently self-researching Construction (3 turns) but can get a 2-for-1 (I suspect) with Theology <> Construction and Theology <> Currency. We can trade Ivory to Cyrus, but he's Pleased with Alexander and we can't bribe him to attack. Otherwise, just did some tile development and city improvements. I opted not to go into Buddhism or any religious civics, and held off self-researching Construction in the hope that we could get it in a trade ... which essentially didn't happen until the last turn of my turnset. Only one city (Beshbalik) however is ready to pump out units at this point, and I got it building a Worker instead.

Save below.

More later.

I downloaded the save, and was able to open it. I guess, it's my turn now, is this correct?

Thanks for the pre-turn report, Cam! This time it was very choppy, and I am not sure, actually, that I have seen it to the end: needed to fiddle several times with pause-start-etc to get it moving, sorry to have to tell you this, as it is a great effort on your part! It could be also my computer that is far from state-of-art: that's why I haven't bought the 5 (the demo didn't run).

I'll be able to look at the details of the safe tomorrow evening, but, nevertheless: congratulations with getting one of the four requirements met! Great job! I actually wonder how you could manage it so fast... Also, I understand the need for currency, but am somewhat worried by MM already having the Machinery, Engineering is next in line on the tech tree, iirc. Aso, Ram has Feudalism and HR and Construction, so: LB+HA+cats+phants....and teching fast...On the positive side of it: we can get Feudalism from him before invading - or when ending the war, and might manage Alex vassalizing. BTW, if we don't have Feud, but our victim has it, can we get him as vassal or not? Never tried that before...And one last thing: I didn't understand very well: were you saying that one of the presonalities is very probably Catherine, and if yes, why?!

 

[Cam_H]

(a.) 'Yep' - your turnset.

(b.) On YouTube, if you've got a slow download, begin the video and hit pause. The video should continue to load. Let it load for a couple of minutes (or more than "a couple" if the download is slow), and when you hit play / un-pause, it should run smoothly. I trust that's what you mean by 'choppy' ... that it part-downloads then stops for a bit while it continues to part-download some more, then plays for a bit, then stops again to download some more ... etc.

(c.) I have found Civ4 to be a more enjoyable game than Civ5 although both have their strengths and weaknesses, so I wouldn't fret too much about missing out (purely subjective view). In light of this Civ5 problem, and your Civ4 BtS problem, it does sound as though you need to invest in a new computer though!

(d.) Islam came in earlier than hoped by building a Library in Istanbul, and trading Literature for 220 (we could get the tech' slider up to 80%-100% while researching Divine Right).

(e.) I agree that the most technologically advanced AIs are concerningly running way ahead also due in large part to our unusual research pathway. I think that we just need to ensure that Istanbul keeps our own tech' rate humming along, and we use the rest of the empire to focus mostly on Catapults and War Elephants. If we can attack Egypt at around 1000AD, it'd be good (25 turns?), but we'll need 'like' 20 Cats and a dozen Elephants. I was hoping to get to Gunpowder by the time we take on Greece, but I'm not sure if that's obtainable.

(f.) We need Feudalism ourselves to arrange a capitulation agreement.

(g.) I'm hoping that one of the 'Hereditary Rule' AIs (most likely Ramesses or Mansa) is Catherine in disguise, and the reason is that of; Alexander, Catherine, Louis XIV, Huyana Capac, and Ragnar, only Catherine has a high threshold to WFYABTA, which means that we will have a technology trading partner for most of the game. As noted earlier, the file; C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Warlords\Assets\XML\Civilizations\CIV4LeaderHead Infos.xml has some detail on AI behaviours, but also check out; 'Mechanics of Technology Trading Limits' for more on this. On the other hand, if we get one of these guys to 'Friendly', then we can trade with them until we start dealing with Space Ship technologies.

As noted before, usually players don't play with 'random personalities' turned on, and a lot of this guesswork that we're going through in this Succession Game now isn't a factor.

Video report;

1st of 5
2nd of 5
3rd of 5
4th of 5 (whoops ... mis-clicked at the end!)
5th of 5​

A couple of ...

I used whip overflow in Istanbul to part-build a Hammam, when I think with hindsight that a Forge would have been more effective.

I also referred to us having five Workers, but I think that we might have six (sorry - away from my Civ4 computer atm).

Not really a move, but one that didn't pay-off; I could probably have deferred Divine Right to self-research Construction in light of being so far ahead of schedule, however most cities were getting Forges and/or Barracks up anyway. As per above, I was hoping to get Construction in a trade.​

I guess a few decisions on;

Do we want to go for Theocracy + Buddhism? If so, we'll need to spread Buddhism more widely, and take a couple of turns of Anarchy.

We can take the two technology trades (probably), which will give the AI access to the Theocracy civic. Worth it?

Do we want to trade Ivory to Persia and gamble that Cyrus will consider attacking Greece (making Greece in likelihood an easier target for us), or will it only add Ivory happiness to Cyrus and a small chance that Cyrus will later attack us using War Elephants from the Ivory that we're considering trading to him?​

In terms of a PPP, my initial reactions is;

We need to get to Engineering asap. I don't know if we should trade Divine Right for Machinery (when it may become an option), or hold back for Divine Right for Engineering.

Every city with the exception of Istanbul (and maybe Ankara) to emphasise Forges, Barracks, Catapults, and War Elephants (a few other units maybe also for city garrisons) when we secure Construction. We'll need tons of Catapults to deal with Egypt's Longbows. Istanbul to grow, work on Cottages and run Scientists when appropriate.

Workers to keep developing Edirne so it can run as many Mines as possible. When we get to Engineering (if we're still in the game given the variant rule!) we should consider building the Hagia Sophia in Edirne. Possibly lay down more Cottages in Istanbul. Beshbalik to get Mines.

Units to 'way point' in Ankara. Good launching point for invasion, and will reduce the chance of city revolt. Consider Hereditary Rule happiness in (whippable, but borderline-unhappy) Karakorum if necessary by adding to its city garrison.​

 

[woopdeedoo]

Hi Gents. From the report it sounds very nice. I'll check out the vids and the save tomorrow. And offer my thoughts.

 

[FiveRings]

(a.) 'Yep' - your turnset.

Great!! I was also thinking about taking a look at the number of turns played by W and you, and settling on doing the bigger number, but then I remembered my goal of learning, so I'll keep to 10 turns. Besides, I feel gentlemanly inclined to let W take part in the action, and not leave her the shuffling of armies from West to East ...

(b.) On YouTube, if you've got a slow download, begin the video and hit pause. The video should continue to load. Let it load for a couple of minutes (or more than "a couple" if the download is slow), and when you hit play / un-pause, it should run smoothly. I trust that's what you mean by 'choppy' ... that it part-downloads then stops for a bit while it continues to part-download some more, then plays for a bit, then stops again to download some more ... etc.

I kind of did this but it IS annoying to wait longer than playing

(c.) I have found Civ4 to be a more enjoyable game than Civ5 although both have their strengths and weaknesses, so I wouldn't fret too much about missing out (purely subjective view). In light of this Civ5 problem, and your Civ4 BtS problem, it does sound as though you need to invest in a new computer though! .

I have read in the thread that Civ5 isn't running very smoothely. I guess I'd have waited some time till the price of the software goes down anyway, but no, I can't afford to buy a new computer to play it, no matter how much I regret not being able to take part in the CF learning process. I was told that upgrading the processor is not possible on the board I have.

(e.) I agree that the most technologically advanced AIs are concerningly running way ahead also due in large part to our unusual research pathway. I think that we just need to ensure that Istanbul keeps our own tech' rate humming along, and we use the rest of the empire to focus mostly on Catapults and War Elephants. If we can attack Egypt at around 1000AD, it'd be good (25 turns?), but we'll need 'like' 20 Cats and a dozen Elephants. I was hoping to get to Gunpowder by the time we take on Greece, but I'm not sure if that's obtainable.

When I was glancing thru the graph on GDP and theother ones, I kind of got the impression that MM is much less solid on GDP than Ram, I don't remember why. So, we might still have a chance IF we manage Ram. I'll be counting turns as well as I can, and have the feeling that 20+12 might prove insufficient to advance quickly: we are sure to lose some 5-7 catapults just to soften LBs and CBs in Thebes enough, then we'll have to split, and for bombarding only we need some 6 cats (I have never up to now attacked before bringing the defence to 0, any thoughts on a min city defence to allow efficient attack?!). I guess we'll need at least one more healer. BTW, do healers' percentages get summed up when in the same stack?!

I guess a few decisions on;

Do we want to go for Theocracy + Buddhism? If so, we'll need to spread Buddhism more widely, and take a couple of turns of Anarchy.

We can take the two technology trades (probably), which will give the AI access to the Theocracy civic. Worth it?

Do we want to trade Ivory to Persia and gamble that Cyrus will consider attacking Greece (making Greece in likelihood an easier target for us), or will it only add Ivory happiness to Cyrus and a small chance that Cyrus will later attack us using War Elephants from the Ivory that we're considering trading to him?​

I will continue thinking over Theo+ Buddha. However, I had a second thought about its effects on our neighbors. Sal will be pleased, but Alex will be displeased and being Toku - most probably - and on good terms with Cyrus, might be tempted to join our war against Ram or, at min, start preparing / speeding up for war with us, which might make our task more difficult. So I'd be looking mainly into the pros and cons of +2exp+1hap vs two lost turns.

I have never valued Theology and DR very much (doing the slitshot to COL, usually) so don't mind trading them but for something valuable, and hopefully not giving Alex the +2exp before we attack him. I'll be definitely inclined to trade in the case of ENG (+Mach, if needed), even if we have reseched a big part already, and -under some circumstances - Gunpowder (we need this for janissreries, iirc, but will that do, or we need iron, too, as I seem to recollect? so - no trade there till we are on the eve of setting our foot on Ram's iron ore)

I will pass on gifting ivory to Cyrus, as I might be biased here, and leave it to you, guys, to decide, and DO get to a joint decision. My guess is, that very soon the phants will be obsolete: pikes seem already coming within next 15-20 turns or so (imagine the consequences, if this happens before we take Thebes!) Can we speed up to both Engineering AND Gunpowder? And build the HS and have two-three wars on our plate? Obviously not...you are only dreaming...

In terms of a PPP, my initial reactions is;

We need to get to Engineering asap. I don't know if we should trade Divine Right for Machinery (when it may become an option), or hold back for Divine Right for Engineering.

Every city with the exception of Istanbul (and maybe Ankara) to emphasise Forges, Barracks, Catapults, and War Elephants (a few other units maybe also for city garrisons) when we secure Construction. We'll need tons of Catapults to deal with Egypt's Longbows. Istanbul to grow, work on Cottages and run Scientists when appropriate.

Workers to keep developing Edirne so it can run as many Mines as possible. When we get to Engineering (if we're still in the game given the variant rule!) we should consider building the Hagia Sophia in Edirne. Possibly lay down more Cottages in Istanbul. Beshbalik to get Mines.

Units to 'way point' in Ankara. Good launching point for invasion, and will reduce the chance of city revolt. Consider Hereditary Rule happiness in (whippable, but borderline-unhappy) Karakorum if necessary by adding to its city garrison.​

Agreed, halt, what do you mean by "running scientists when appropriate"? Shouldn't weaken the research effort till we get ENG, at least, imho.
I'd militarize Ankara, too: there would be enough units to suppress revolts there, or what? Have we had already the first one there?

AND on a side observation: do we still need the priest in Ed?

And THANKS for all the insights and strategizing! (didn't make it under separate items to cut on length)

 

[Cam_H]

Great!! I was also thinking about taking a look at the number of turns played by W and you, and settling on doing the bigger number, but then I remembered my goal of learning, so I'll keep to 10 turns. Besides, I feel gentlemanly inclined to let W take part in the action, and not leave her the shuffling of armies from West to East ...

I think the deal is to play 15 turns ... but if 12, or 14, or 17 is a particularly 'appropriate' place to stop and pass it along (e.g. a new technology, or a new Great Person pops, or the end of a war), then finish up there instead.

I guess we'll need at least one more healer. BTW, do healers' percentages get summed up when in the same stack?!

Sadly; no: "No more than one Medic unit can operate on a unit eligible for healing each turn." from Unit Healing.

Agreed, halt, what do you mean by "running scientists when appropriate"? Shouldn't weaken the research effort till we get ENG, at least, imho.

Weaken the research effort? Sorry ... could you explain further?

I think that we have to get Istanbul to do the bulk of our research from now on, and this is to be done by building and maturing Cottages, and popping Great Scientists, the first being for an Academy in Istanbul. At the moment, Istanbul is in a period of significant growth, and has three Cottages being worked up. I envisaged the following shorter-term improvements;

Spoiler :

We can easily build two more Grassland riverside Cottages, Farm that tile that will chain-irrigate fresh water to the Corn once we get Civil Service, and run two Scientists. There's still growth for extra citizens to work the Ivory tiles after that - esp. if we Farm/Plantation the Sugars. When the population gets quite large, we can whip out the Hammam for +2 and +2. As suggested, we could possibly put Cottages on some of the Ivory tiles or the Sugar tiles if we wanted for more .

I see Istanbul continuing to push us toward our military technologies, while the rest of the empire does the 'muscle work' in raising and replenishing our army - at least until we've dealt with Egypt and Greece (and maybe eventually Mongolia?).

Karakorum could make a valuable National Epic / -Farm later on because of its big food surplus that can be used to support specialist citizens, but for now it has to help out with our looming war effort.

I hope I'm clear on my thoughts, but as always, very happy to hear from the rest of the roster.

I'd militarize Ankara, too: there would be enough units to suppress revolts there, or what? Have we had already the first one there?

AND on a side observation: do we still need the priest in Ed?

And THANKS for all the insights and strategizing! (didn't make it under separate items to cut on length)

No revolts in Ankara yet.

No Priest needed in Edirne ... Farms and Mines.

I'm still hesitant on "insights and strategizing", and hoping I'm not making too many moves or suggestions, or being too confusing!