The tech-pace is too slow

Usually I play Monarch, and though I have not yet lost a game I played to the end, usually several AIs had at least completed Apollo program, even if they were still far from completing their ship. My latest win was in 1960 so the AIs might well have made it before 2000.

From my experience (based on rather few games of course, everything we discuss here is subject to change, I guess) I can say that there will now be a lot of backwardly AIs, but also one or a few that are much more advanced. There's less equality among the AIs now. Quite realistic, kinda like the First and the Third World ;)
 
Usually I play Monarch, and though I have not yet lost a game I played to the end, usually several AIs had at least completed Apollo program, even if they were still far from completing their ship. My latest win was in 1960 so the AIs might well have made it before 2000.

From my experience (based on rather few games of course, everything we discuss here is subject to change, I guess) I can say that there will now be a lot of backwardly AIs, but also one or a few that are much more advanced. There's less equality among the AIs now. Quite realistic, kinda like the First and the Third World ;)

Yes, the no-tech brokering option creates the rich and the poor--just like in the real world! :lol:
 
In all honesty, I think slower teching is needed so you can have time to use all the units/buildings you unlock.

Ok, posts like this are missing the original posters point. It's not that teching in general is slower, it's that the AI is teching slower. The number of games I've played where I'm wandering around with Infantry before most, if not all, of the AI even have Riflemen is considerable (this is on Monarch). And I'm not doing any early rushes to give me an extra advantage.

The AI is pretty decent at being competitive early on, but it seems like it can't hold on to that. As I said in another post, some leaders like Ragnar seem especially bad at keeping up. They keep going to war, at the same time as they are falling farther behind in tech. So they come attacking with Horse Archers and Macemen when you're defending with Riflemen. This does not make for a fun experience.

Bh
 
IronCrown,

Is that with no tech brokering on?

To me, in BtS the strategic resources seem a little harder to come by, and if true, that will impact on the ability of the AI to field competitve armies late-game when it really matters. For instance, I've seen a number of AIs without oil, coal or aluminium...
 
Ok, posts like this are missing the original posters point. It's not that teching in general is slower, it's that the AI is teching slower. The number of games I've played where I'm wandering around with Infantry before most, if not all, of the AI even have Riflemen is considerable (this is on Monarch). And I'm not doing any early rushes to give me an extra advantage.

The AI is pretty decent at being competitive early on, but it seems like it can't hold on to that. As I said in another post, some leaders like Ragnar seem especially bad at keeping up. They keep going to war, at the same time as they are falling farther behind in tech. So they come attacking with Horse Archers and Macemen when you're defending with Riflemen. This does not make for a fun experience.

Bh

I suggest you to stop whining and move up a level.
 
IronCrown,

Is that with no tech brokering on?

No. I tried the option once (because I really like it in theory) but I felt that it really crippled the AI, almost like going down one or even two difficulty levels.

I agree with Bhruic that overall Monarch is now easier than in Warlords. At least a lot easier than Warlords Monarch with the BetterAI mod. In Warlords I had just managed to win my very first game on Monarch. In BtS I already won an Emperor game, and Monarch is so far a challenge but usually not to the point that I'm in danger of losing.
 
Ok, posts like this are missing the original posters point. It's not that teching in general is slower, it's that the AI is teching slower.

EXACTLY!

I suggest you to stop whining and move up a level.

Well posts like this are really helpful :rolleyes:

The AI was changed for BtS. It doesn't seem unreasonable that we can point out some things that are wrong with it. It's new, it's gonna need some tweaks. Yes, I could easily move up a level to face some more challenge. But is that the solution? For everyone who plays civ4 to now move up a level? How is that IMPROVED AI??? I expected the game to be HARDER not EASIER with IMPROVED AI! Also, if the AI is making BAD DECISIONS like investing too much in espionage and researching techs that they don't need when skipping techs that they do need then this needs to be addressed imho.

I'm not opposed to the game IN GENERAL taking longer, but when I have tanks and the rest of the world has longbows I see that as an indication that something is wrong...and not simply an indication that I should move up a skill level.
 
While I said that Monarch feels easier for me than before, I might add that a friend of mine, who used to be about equal in strength to me in MP games, has much more problems with BtS Monarch AI. He plays Prince now and when we tried a MP recently with Monarch AIs, he was far behind. It may depend on the player's individual style whether he feels the new AI to be harder or easier on his accustomed difficulty level.
 
I suggest you to stop whining and move up a level.

People have a very skewed idea of what constitutes "whining". Anyone who can mistake a rational, reasoned debate for whining pretty obviously has nothing to contribute to the discussion. And as such, I must assume you are merely trolling.

To address your only point however, moving up a level does multiple things, and only one of them is making the AI tech faster. I don't want the AI to produce faster, have more combat bonuses or have cheaper upgrades. All of those areas are fine on the difficulty level that I generally play at. I do, however, want some degree of reasonable tech upgrading. It seems that too many Civs overlook this area.

Bh
 
I've only moderately read through the last 3 pages, so if I repeat something someone else said, it's only because I agree with them. :)

The tech pace is give & take.

Making the AI less of a military pushover seems to have resulted in making it more of a technological pushover now.

I'm not sure what it's doing with Espionage. I leave my EP slider at 10-20% the whole game and can typically see everybody's Research path and a couple of the low guys' demographics.

However, Spies are discovered just about every turn in my territory, so it's clearly expending a lot of :hammers: on Spy production instead of infrastructure.

All in all, I like this change, because it let's me get a lot more into Warmongering now that it takes a little bit of thought and planning.

I suggest you to stop whining and move up a level.

Well posts like this are really helpful :rolleyes:

:agree: Haven't you ever seen Bambi?

If you don't have anything good to say ...

... don't say anything at all.
 
Ok, posts like this are missing the original posters point. It's not that teching in general is slower, it's that the AI is teching slower.

Not at all, it was merely an anecdote I thought was relevant in this discussion. Also I must say that from what you describe, you should definately move up a level, I have found the gap between Monarch and Emperor in BtS to be quite large. And I don't think you are whining :)

Anyways, the way the new AI works is that it get alot less passive bonuses like added production, commerce and it works out by itself what to do instead. That makes so that the AI needs to do more things by themselves instead of relying on these bonuses and the effect is they seem dumber but are in fact more versatile. Some bugs are still there but I personally love the new AI. IMO, in warlords on higher difficulty settings you had to spam science to even have a chance to stay on par, with the new AI you can actually do other things aswell.

In my current game the Koreans got Galleons at 1250 AD, it's on emperor. It is currently 1335 and Hammurabi got Scientific Method.
 
Also I must say that from what you describe, you should definately move up a level, I have found the gap between Monarch and Emperor in BtS to be quite large.

I suppose it's possible - I'm just playing at the same level I was with Warlords. It strikes me as a bad thing if I'm moving up not because I got better, but because the AI got, well, I won't say worse, but less competitive.

Anyways, the way the new AI works is that it get alot less passive bonuses like added production, commerce and it works out by itself what to do instead. That makes so that the AI needs to do more things by themselves instead of relying on these bonuses and the effect is they seem dumber but are in fact more versatile. Some bugs are still there but I personally love the new AI.

Oh, I'm quite familiar with how the new AI works. The main problem with it, imo, is that when the AI decides to prioritize something other than either the Space Race, or Teching in general (ie, Culture, Domination, etc), it seems to completely leave tech by the wayside. An AI that is focused on Domination, for example, should not be falling behind in tech. If it does so, it's going to find that it doesn't have modern enough units to compete. An AI that is focused on Culture shouldn't be falling behind for a complementary, but reverse reason - self-defence. If the AI is guarding its cities with Longbows, and the tech-heavy (or player) is walking around with Grenadiers, that AI is going to get pummeled.

So I suppose my point is that it's fine that the AI chooses other paths, but no path can afford to neglect gaining tech if it wants to be successful.

In my current game the Koreans got Galleons at 1250 AD, it's on emperor. It is currently 1335 and Hammurabi got Scientific Method.

Sure, and in my current game, I'm not the tech leader either. There are 2 AIs slightly ahead, and 1 that's just a little behind. But that's out of 19 AIs. That leaves 16 AIs that are quite far behind me. When I just researched Machinery, I shouldn't see AIs that still want Iron Working (when I didn't rush Machinery, that is).

Bh
 
Im still struggling at Noble difficulty and I often find myself seriously outteched with 5+ techs by some AI with 4 to 5 cities, on both normal and epic speed. The AI get techs faster than me despite that I have 2-3 times more cities and a higher research percentage. I'd think the AI was cheating if it wasn't for my difficulty setting. What is going on here? Some mad diplomacy skill?
 
I suppose it's possible - I'm just playing at the same level I was with Warlords. It strikes me as a bad thing if I'm moving up not because I got better, but because the AI got, well, I won't say worse, but less competitive.

To me, as long as your not on immortal and have no where to go, then what's wrong with just bumping up a difficulty level?

As people have mentioned the slower tech pace has increased their enjoyment of the game. Meanwhile, you have the option of increasing your difficulty so that you can get the AI tech rate you are looking for. I don't see the problem.
 
Im still struggling at Noble difficulty and I often find myself seriously outteched with 5+ techs by some AI with 4 to 5 cities, on both normal and epic speed. The AI get techs faster than me despite that I have 2-3 times more cities and a higher research percentage. I'd think the AI was cheating if it wasn't for my difficulty setting. What is going on here? Some mad diplomacy skill?

What leader are you playing as, and what leaders out tech you? Some AI's like Mansa Musa are infamous for outteching anyone but a fellow Financial leader, simply because they build few units, trade techs a lot, focus on commerce and research and get +1:commerce: all over the place. He's usually more easily warred with though because his army is smaller than average. If you play a non-financial civ he can easily outpace the human player if he gets a cottage-friendly start location. Frederick is about the same personality if I remember my leaders right, very peaceable but a fast tech'er.

Even on emperor, if there's a leader you know likes tech'ing fast (especially Financial leaders) I either:

1) Never open borders with them for long (it might hurt me more than help but *shrugs* it sometimes blocks their trade routes)
2) Try and pass them some religion that no one else has as a State Religion, so the world hates them and doesn't trade.
3) If they're far from my lands, declare war early before they make powerful friends, build a small stack of counter-units (3 axemen, 3 spearmen, a medic and a horse archer for example) and go on a pillaging spree. The -1 diplomatic hit to a few other leaders is worth killing his economy early, and you get loads of gold to boot.
4) If they're close to my borders, declare war early, take a few major cities quickly and make them your vassal (or accept peace for some of their techs if the war starts wearing down your nation's time and resources too much). Most of the tech-friendly leaders have very small standing armies in peacetime. Don't go for totally wiping them off the map, they lead you in tech and their units will kill yours if you let them crank out units in full military mode too long, plus war weariness will set in.

Sometimes, if they're much more powerful than you military-wise it can be worth it to send in a pillaging force to them while you fight a defensive war on your territory. Them sending stacks at you will give them war weariness, tie up cities for building troops that could be building markets, and overall slow down their economy. They might even switch away from better economic civics. Going to war doesn't mean you have to wipe them off the map, or even take any cities. Let them come to your heavily-fortified cities, where your units can use road movement and heal faster in cultural borders, while you wreck their cottages behind their lines and they get most of the war weariness. This is even better if you can get the Great Wall.

Speaking of the great wall, another strategy that works for some people if you have Stone or the Industrious trait is going for the Great Wall as soon as possible, and using the Great Spy that pops out to infiltrate an enemy civ for something like 5,000 espionage points against them, which you can then use to steal 3-4 techs with regular spies.


If you're being out teched by all the AI leaders in general, try and focus on:

1) Hook up your cities to your capital as soon as possible with roads or sailing so your cities can trade; isolated cities cannot have a trade route.
2) Build more cottages at the earliest opportunity, and make sure citizens are at work on them so they grow (I often change what tiles citizens are working manually in the city window)
3) Might need to expand a little slower in the early game; I typically have just my capital and 3 other cities, maybe 4 at a stretch, for some time - depending on who my leader is. I've been playing the Dutch in BtS, so I generally go for an early Cultural-trait land grab, defend and build cottages + the cheap libraries, then start fighting neighbors in the classical and medieval age. Different leaders are better with different strategies though, when I used to play as Huayna Capek I'd build 7 Quecha right off and take 1-2 AI capitals rather than build settlers and cities.
4) Go for alphabet and trade techs with as many AI's as you can (without actually ever trading Alphabet away if possible. If one person has researched Alphabet, other civs are less likely to go for it as most techs have already been traded). You'll help each leader a little bit individually, but you gain a lot in total.
5) Try and get currency and courthouses early. Currency gives you +1 trade routes and allows you to build markets for +25%:gold:.
 
My vote for the cause of the slow tech pace(if any as i've only played 2 BTS games so far) would have to be the Espionage slider.
My first game as Sumeria saw me end up on an isolated island with Pericles, I wanted to see how Espionage worked so bumped my slider up to 20% and it seemed Pericles did the same my our ratio hovered around the 96-106% mark, even when I got my ridiculously early and cheap Ziggurats and I was twice his size he still kept up. Of course he was ridiculously behind in tech by the 1500s.
That was probably a case of the AI reacting to my Espionage spending, but if a lot of you are seeing the AI spending 10% tax on Espionage by default the obviously that's going to result in a 10% slower global tech pace.
 
I don't know ... I think we are just getting used to a new AI.

I've seen Hatty with her obelisk fueled great people snatch up 3 holy cities, used Hammurabi as a buffer, and doubled the gold of the 2nd place gold civ (me).

I've seen Carthage be a trade monkey with Rome and coastal cities and double my gold.

The AI's are playing more to their strenghs - if they tech well, they tech hard. If they produce well, they throw their weight around.

What do I think the issue is? Someone mentioned that the AI responded to espionage. I frequently use 10-20% esp myself (if I can afford it), but unlike the AI if I need to play catch up I shut my espionage off. The AI doesn't do this ... spending 20% on espionage when it is last in gold - the AI doesn't realize that its behind and doesn't have the luxury to move commerce around. Instead, it keeps on spending and the AI just kind of fizzles out (what if Pericles from the above poster realized it was lagging and shut off espionage to catch up? Would it still be behind at 1500 AD?)

All of this is on noble difficulty - I could move up, but as a member of a pitboss community I like to use noble since even though the AI isn't as good, it doesn't cheat and can more accurately model a human as far as timing and military strength are concerned.
 
Yes, I really notice this. I'm like 5-6 Techs further away from the Top 2nd Advance Civilization. I don't care how advance I am from the Civilization but I am too advance.
 
I don't know ... I think we are just getting used to a new AI.


I don't want to get used to a new AI that sometimes, irrationally, gets totally outteched by the human on high difficulty levels, and I think this is Futurehermit's and many other people's problem with the new AI.
 
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