The thread for space cadets!

[hobbsyoyo]

Don't hold your breath Winner.

 

[Winner]

I had no idea Russias contributions to the ISS were cramped and crappy. I kind of thought they would be on par with everyone elses or even better given their extensive experience with space stations.

The Russian side of the ISS is basically Mir-2. No surprise there. The American side hosts the foreign modules (Columbus and Kibo) as well so it's more spacious.

Also, a guy who is in charge of reforming the Russian space program says Russia needs a goal to work towards and mentions a lunar base as a possible goal.

I'd say this part sums it up pretty well:

"The industry is excessively large," he pointed out. "In our country, there are several large concerns that simultaneously produce similar products: control systems, launch systems, space satellites, engines. Inside the country, we cannot generate sufficient demand for the industry ourselves, it is working at about half of its capacity, and we also cannot control quality, with such a wide range of products it is impossible to control everything.

Russia's Soviet inheritance is simply unmanageable, and not just in the aerospace industry. The should have scaled down mercilessly decades ago, but they didn't. Russia is a country of 140 million with an economy roughly the size of the UK's. Economically it's not a superpower by any stretch and with the absence of brutal dictatorship it simply cannot afford to be acting like one.

The trouble is, nobody can admit it, it would be a political suicide to say "Well, we are now a medium-size power on par with France or Germany and have to act like it. Russia sees itself in the same league as the US and China, and this makes it do stupid things.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Well at least now the Russian government sees the problem. Part of their solution is to cull the industry of excess capacity and unneeded engineers while bringing in new talent. We'll just have to see if they can pull that off though.

 

[Winner]

I am sorry if this comes out wrong, but the naivité of Westerners when it comes to post-soviet/post-communist realities never ceases to amaze me

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I am sorry if this comes out wrong, but the naivité of Westerners when it comes to post-soviet/post-communist realities never ceases to amaze me

I hope you're not talking about me here! lol I have no doubt that the Russian space program will continue to be a train wreck. They will make heads roll over it, but that will only make the problem worse IMO.

 

[Crezth]

Well at least now the Russian government sees the problem. Part of their solution is to cull the industry of excess capacity and unneeded engineers while bringing in new talent. We'll just have to see if they can pull that off though.

"unneeded engineers" rofl

 

[hobbsyoyo]

"unneeded engineers" rofl

Read the article brah. They wanna cull the ranks from 250,000 to like 150-170,000.

Though I was kind of stumped on how they can cull the ranks and bring in fresh talent at the same time.

 

[bugwar]

Read the article brah. They wanna cull the ranks from 250,000 to like 150-170,000.

Though I was kind of stumped on how they can cull the ranks and bring in fresh talent at the same time.

Um, fire 100,000 non-producers and hire 20,000 real engineers?
250k - 100k + 20k = 170k

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Um, fire 100,000 non-producers and hire 20,000 real engineers?
250k - 100k + 20k = 170k

That's assuming they can find 20,000 real engineers that aren't already employed in the space program. If it really is as overstaffed as it is, why can't they just cut out the bad ones and keep the good ones? Why cut and hire?

 

[dutchfire]

Cause you want young people, to help your program forward into the next decades, instead of keeping 50yos who grew up in the Soviet era and are not going to be innovating during their lifetime.

 

[bugwar]

If it really is as overstaffed as it is, why can't they just cut out the bad ones and keep the good ones? Why cut and hire?

I think that those of the original group that survived the cuts were consided 'good' enough to be kept.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Cause you want young people, to help your program forward into the next decades, instead of keeping 50yos who grew up in the Soviet era and are not going to be innovating during their lifetime.

I'm merely pointing out that an agency that is so bloated and overextended probably already contains all the quality young people the country produces. They're buried in a sea of crap though.

I'm just not sure they can find other young engineers b/c they probably already have them all. I could be wrong clearly, but the article was really vague on how they are going to do this.

 

[Winner]

Cause you want young people, to help your program forward into the next decades, instead of keeping 50yos who grew up in the Soviet era and are not going to be innovating during their lifetime.

Actually, it's probably these old farts who are keeping Russia functioning in space. Remove them and you can kiss their whole space programme good bye.

This is not a case of Russia lacking brains, it's a case of having a wholly inadequate organization and resources available to sustain so massive a space programme.

 

[Crezth]

Um, fire 100,000 non-producers and hire 20,000 real engineers?
250k - 100k + 20k = 170k

If the edifice of your professional development is such that 40% of your trained engineers are non-producers, you have way bigger problems than can be solved by a one-time downsizing.

This is not a case of Russia lacking brains, it's a case of having a wholly inadequate organization and resources available to sustain so massive a space programme.

+1. Russia has begun the long backslide into complete irrelevance.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The International Astronautical Congress just approved a year long stay for one Cosmonaut and one Astronaut. If this mission approves 'effective' (not clear on the criteria they use to define that), they will open opportunities for other nations to have their spacefarers stay for a year at a time.

This will help with logistics I guess. But honestly, if I were an astronaut, I'd be terrified to get on a Soyuz after all the problems they've been having.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49261253/ns/technology_and_science-space/

 

[bugwar]

Cling-film telescopes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19758442

 

[Winner]

Unless they finally install a CENTRIFUGE on the ISS, these long zero-g stay studies are useless. We've been studying it for 40 years for gods' sake; what we need to study is zero-g deconditioning MITIGATION techniques, of which providing simulated gravity is likely to be the most effective.

Why on Earth have we an ISS if we're not using it to prepare for deep space, long-duration space flight?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Well long stays aren't useless as they lesson the need for crew rotations. Plus, they can still use the ISS for different kinds of zero g research besides endurance trials.

 

[Winner]

Well long stays aren't useless as they lesson the need for crew rotations. Plus, they can still use the ISS for different kinds of zero g research besides endurance trials.

My point is that we know fairly well now what zero-g does the human body. What we don't know much about is how much gravity we need to actually protect it from rapid deconditioning. Does, say, 0.5g four hours a day suffice? Or do we need more time in gravity, or stronger gravity? Are different body systems affected differently? Can human body adjust to lunar or martian gravity levels without some unforeseen problems?

These are all huge unknowns and we NEED answers before we can send people on missions in deep space which will last for months or years.

Strangely, the ISS was supposed to have the centrifuge, but it was removed due to budget cuts (and probably also the zero-g researchers lobbying, which is pathetic).

 

[Crezth]

Come on, Winner. Think of a more substantial objection than something specious like "we already know everything there is to know about zero-g and the human body."