The thread for space cadets!

Well, OK. But this looks hardly likely to pay off in anything like the next 100 years. I can see that getting your materials in space for use in space makes a lot of sense in theory. But you'd need to set up a whole processing system up there in order to exploit this material. My mind just boggles with the difficulty of all this.

I can see increasing use of nanotechnology making the cost of getting technologies out into space much much cheaper using existing propulsion techniques on Earth. Getting people into space seems a much less saner approach, and I don't see how you could realistically expect to carry out significant mining and manufacturing without the presence of human beings.

Still, there you go. Nothing to be lost by looking into it, properly.
 
Well, OK. But this looks hardly likely to pay off in anything like the next 100 years.

Do you own a functioning crystal ball? It's hard to predict how the space market will develop in 10 years, much less one hundred.

AFAIK this particular group isn't rushing to anything, they're not promising to be mining unobtanium in space in 15 years or something equally nonsensical.

I can see that getting your materials in space for use in space makes a lot of sense in theory. But you'd need to set up a whole processing system up there in order to exploit this material. My mind just boggles with the difficulty of all this.

You need propellant storage depots in suitable orbits, automated machines to extract ice, and automated transport systems to get it to customers. Nothing we can't do with present-day or very near term technology. The development of this isn't hampered by its complexity, which isn't that great, but by economic uncertainty.

I can see increasing use of nanotechnology making the cost of getting technologies out into space much much cheaper using existing propulsion techniques on Earth. Getting people into space seems a much less saner approach, and I don't see how you could realistically expect to carry out significant mining and manufacturing without the presence of human beings.

Define significant. Let's say your business plan is to provide propellant for navigation, communication, and observation satellites, which would prolong their service life. You don't need hundreds of tonnes of propellant for that.

In the long run, yes, of course we'll need people up there to oversee major mining operations, construction sites, spacedocks, and whatnot. But in the near future, using automated systems for operations beyond LEO, especially beyond lunar orbit, is the only economical alternative.

Still, there you go. Nothing to be lost by looking into it, properly.

Except money, of course. One can't expect that all business ventures in space will meet with resounding success. Most will fail to take off.
 
http://arxiv.org/abs/1210.3612 (science-heavy :) )

We report the discovery and confirmation of a transiting circumbinary planet (PH1) around KIC 4862625, an eclipsing binary in the Kepler field. The planet was discovered by volunteers searching the first six Quarters of publicly available Kepler data as part of the Planet Hunters citizen science project.

Outside the planet's orbit, at ~1000 AU, a previously unknown visual binary has been identified that is bound to the planetary system, making this the first known case of a quadruple star system with a transiting planet.
A pleasant find, actually. :crazyeye:
 
There must be tons of planets with much more interesting sky than ours. Two suns, three suns, a view of the Galactic core, a neutron star eating another star, etc. ;)
 
There must be tons of planets with much more interesting sky than ours. Two suns, three suns, a view of the Galactic core, a neutron star eating another star, etc. ;)
That actually reminds me of a Scientific American article I saw in the magazine quite a few years back, where they detailed a hypothetical scenario of a white dwarf, on its own independent orbit around the Galactic Center, literally dives into our own sun in a direct collision, causing Sol to go kablooey. Dunno how realistic it is though. :lol:

Of course, I figure you were thinking more along the lines of the end-of-life stages of massive binaries, but still, made me think of it regardless. :)
 
That actually reminds me of a Scientific American article I saw in the magazine quite a few years back, where they detailed a hypothetical scenario of a white dwarf, on its own independent orbit around the Galactic Center, literally dives into our own sun in a direct collision, causing Sol to go kablooey. Dunno how realistic it is though. :lol:

Of course, I figure you were thinking more along the lines of the end-of-life stages of massive binaries, but still, made me think of it regardless. :)

How frequent are stellar collisions, anyway? I'd say pretty damn rare because I haven't read about them much.

(In Dragon's Egg, I am sure you know the book, a neutron star passes near our Solar System. Not close enough to cause any major trouble, but the orbits of the outer planets get slightly perturbed. Which gets me thinking - all it would take to end us is a reasonable close stellar fly-by by a near Sol-mass star. It would either scatter the planets or wreak havoc with their orbits. It would be less Hollywoodish in appearance, but just as deadly for the human race/life on Earth in general. We would also be totally powerless against that.)
 
Space is HUGE (source: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy). The ratio of stars floating around this vast space is on a higher order than atoms in a fluid. The odds against a specific star like our sun to have a collision are infinitesmal. And yet, since there are so many stars, and space virtually infinite, than we can speculate that collisions and near passes (just as good) must be occuring somewhere, virtually all the time.
 
How frequent are stellar collisions, anyway? I'd say pretty damn rare because I haven't read about them much.

(In Dragon's Egg, I am sure you know the book, a neutron star passes near our Solar System. Not close enough to cause any major trouble, but the orbits of the outer planets get slightly perturbed. Which gets me thinking - all it would take to end us is a reasonable close stellar fly-by by a near Sol-mass star. It would either scatter the planets or wreak havoc with their orbits. It would be less Hollywoodish in appearance, but just as deadly for the human race/life on Earth in general. We would also be totally powerless against that.)
I believe it would have to be a bit more than 'reasonably close' to really mess up the solar system. As in, within the Oort cloud, I think. Further out than that, it likely wouldn't do much to us, assuming it's Sol-mass or less. There could actually be brown dwarfs dancing all around us that we don't know about because the effect is so tiny and they are so dark.

Of course, this could be what you meant by 'reasonably close'.
Well, OK. But this looks hardly likely to pay off in anything like the next 100 years. I can see that getting your materials in space for use in space makes a lot of sense in theory. But you'd need to set up a whole processing system up there in order to exploit this material. My mind just boggles with the difficulty of all this.

I can see increasing use of nanotechnology making the cost of getting technologies out into space much much cheaper using existing propulsion techniques on Earth. Getting people into space seems a much less saner approach, and I don't see how you could realistically expect to carry out significant mining and manufacturing without the presence of human beings.

Still, there you go. Nothing to be lost by looking into it, properly.

Space Mining is going to be heavily automated for reasons of cost and simplicity. We are fast approaching the point where automated systems could do this job as well as a human could, once we have figured out 'how' to do it in the first place. It just wouldn't make sense to send out a lot of humans to do the job if it can be avoided. Bots are cheaper and safer by huge margins. Of course, this doesn't mean there won't be any humans out there wildcatting it up.

I'd also like to address the 'why' part from the previous page.

Yes, nickel and iron are abundant. But look at the toll mining takes on the environment, look at how expensive it is for a given amount of ore.

On an asteroid, no one cares if you pollute it or completely wreck it. There are no otters and seals and bald eagles to worry about. Plus, there is an insanely large amount of ores to be had relatively easily (once you are actually there and doing it - start up costs will be enormous) compared to Earth veins.

Then there are those precious metals and rare-earths. I've said this before several times, but it's worth repeating:

Think of all the electronics that use things like gold and molybdenum and are expensive as a result. Or all the electonics that use cheaper substitutes to keep prices down but are therefore inferior. Access to an asteroid will crash the market for these metals - and that's a great thing. Suddenly, we will find new uses for these rare materials and the goods we have will be cheaper. Plus, you won't have to worry as much about the impact on the environment that your new iPad cost because it's materials came from the void.

Remember, at one point, aluminum was considered more precious than all the other precious metals. Imagine a world where it still was, now imagine a world where all of the precious and rare earths were no longer precious or rare.
 
Yes, nickel and iron are abundant. But look at the toll mining takes on the environment, look at how expensive it is for a given amount of ore.

On an asteroid, no one cares if you pollute it or completely wreck it. There are no otters and seals and bald eagles to worry about. Plus, there is an insanely large amount of ores to be had relatively easily (once you are actually there and doing it - start up costs will be enormous) compared to Earth veins.

Then there are those precious metals and rare-earths. I've said this before several times, but it's worth repeating:

Think of all the electronics that use things like gold and molybdenum and are expensive as a result. Or all the electonics that use cheaper substitutes to keep prices down but are therefore inferior. Access to an asteroid will crash the market for these metals - and that's a great thing. Suddenly, we will find new uses for these rare materials and the goods we have will be cheaper. Plus, you won't have to worry as much about the impact on the environment that your new iPad cost because it's materials came from the void.

Remember, at one point, aluminum was considered more precious than all the other precious metals. Imagine a world where it still was, now imagine a world where all of the precious and rare earths were no longer precious or rare.
Um...rare earth metals aren't called rare because they are rare, IIRC. They are extremely abundant, especially in certain regions of China.
There is no firm definition of rare earth metals, but the term generally refers to metals used in small quantities. Rare earth metals include: rare earth elements—17 elements in the periodic table, the 15 lanthanides plus scandium and yttrium; six platinum group elements; and other byproduct metals that occur in copper, gold, uranium, phosphates, iron or zinc ores. While many rare earth metals are actually quite common, they are seldom found in sufficient amounts to be extracted economically.

And you seem to be talking about mining materials in space for use back on earth. This wouldn't make much sense, IMO. Because of the huge overhead of launching stuff into space. And the concomitant negative effects on Earth's environment.

Mining iron and nickel in space for use on Earth makes absolutely no sense, to me.
 
Um...rare earth metals aren't called rare because they are rare, IIRC. They are extremely abundant, especially in certain regions of China.
No they are called rare earth elements because they are extremely rare. Wikipedia them.


And you seem to be talking about mining materials in space for use back on earth. This wouldn't make much sense, IMO. Because of the huge overhead of launching stuff into space. And the concomitant negative effects on Earth's environment.

Mining iron and nickel in space for use on Earth makes absolutely no sense, to me.
You launch a couple of rockets with your first batch of robo miners and fabricators. Go mine an asteroid, fabricate more robo miners, rinse and repeat. I've covered this before in several threads.
 
Despite their name, rare earth elements (with the exception of the radioactive promethium) are relatively plentiful in the Earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million (similar to copper).
Here it is from Wiki.
 
Yeah but who needs nickel and iron and also rare earth elements are extremely common
emot-shepface.gif


They're called rare because they're hard to extract... on Earth.
 
Ah, me!

Together with scandium and yttrium, the trivial name "rare earths" is sometimes used to describe all the lanthanides. This name arises from the minerals from which they were isolated, which were uncommon oxide-type minerals. However, the use of the name is deprecated by IUPAC, as the elements are neither rare in abundance nor "earths" (an obsolete term for water-insoluble strongly basic oxides of electropositive metals incapable of being smelted into metal using late 18th century technology)[citation needed]. Cerium is the 26th most abundant element in the Earth's crust, neodymium is more abundant than gold and even thulium (the least common naturally occurring lanthanide) is more abundant than iodine.[8] Despite their abundance, even the technical term "lanthanides" could be interpreted to reflect a sense of elusiveness on the part of these elements, as it comes from the Greek λανθανειν (lanthanein), "to lie hidden". However, if not referring to their natural abundance, but rather to their property of "hiding" behind each other in minerals, this interpretation is in fact appropriate. The etymology of the term must be sought in the first discovery of lanthanum, at that time a so-called new rare earth element "lying hidden" in a cerium mineral, and it is an irony that lanthanum was later identified as the first in an entire series of chemically similar elements and could give name to the whole series. The term "lanthanide" was probably introduced by Victor Goldschmidt in 1925

They can indeed be hard to extract. That's not why they're called rare.
 
Ah, me!

They can indeed be hard to extract. That's not why they're called rare.

No, it is in a way. The main reason they're hard to extract is because they're often found interspersed with other minerals as you say.

This is not necessarily the case in space.
 
Where? What? Oh, was there a fight going on? I must have missed it.

Nah there wasn't brohammed, I'm being a sarcastic jerk.

It was just funny cause you proved they weren't rare, but also proved they weren't as easy to get on Earth as they possibly are in space. Which is essentially the center of the discussion - the name is really tangential.
 
http://www.eso.org/public/announcements/ann12072/

European astronomers have used facilities at ESO’s La Silla Observatory to discover a remarkable exoplanet. The results will appear online in the journal Nature on 17 October 2012.

ESO will hold an online press conference to announce the results and assess their impact, offering journalists the opportunity to discuss with the scientists. The conference will take place on Tuesday 16 October 2012 at 16:00 CEST.
Spoiler random rant :
The thing that pisses me off is that it's in the frakkin SOUTH hemisphere. :mad:

While I've already have held a life-long grudge against the southern hemisphere simply because THEY got to see Alpha Centauri while us Northerners were left in the dark and didn't see squat of Alpha Centauri, if this discovery turns out to be revolutionary, I will go way, way, WAY, beyond very, very, VERY pissed off.

Especially if it's at a star I can't see above 48 degrees north (need a few degrees buffer to counter atmoshperic haze at the horizon).

(Not saying the discovery is at Alpha Centauri, I mentioned that star because I"ve always been irritated by not being able to see it where I live.)

Other than that, pretty neat. :)

Plus, the following day, the 17'th, when they release the info to the public (IIRC), is coincidentally the exact same date (October 17th, 2012) when a gigantic, major space event happens in my short story. :crazyeye:
 
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