The Touhou Mod Development Thread

[DeletedSettler]

Considering the issue of OP versus non-OP civs, I do wonder... is it better for the initial version of a civ to be a bit overpowered, and then get toned down with revisions, or to be a bit underpowered, and then get buffed?

My musing on it is that it's easier to understand why something is overpowered, you can point at a specific thing that went out of control and know to tone it down, compared to the infinite possibilities of "this is underpowered but I don't know what to do about it".

However, at least for myself, it's more fun to end up initially underpowered than that realization I'm in for a very boring comp-stomp of a game.

As for the Oni, I'm thinking on the Brewery. What if the brewery gave produced units more experience based on how many of the resources (wheat, bananas, deer, citrus, wine) the city has? It could give a "bonus barracks" of sorts long before the Medieval era when other people'd have the Armory.

 

[Prairial]

So I was trying out that Aya lead Bunbunmaru civ that showed up on the steam workshop, and while I have some questions about it, I have no idea if its author is here.

The Aya's civ is just a semi-finished product now.
I have no good ideas to improve the MOD, and it seems that there are very few players play the MOD, so maybe next version will be the final one like this:

 

[bouncymischa]

The Aya's civ is just a semi-finished product now.
I have no good ideas to improve the MOD, and it seems that there are very few players play the MOD, so maybe next version will be the final one like this:

Oooh, that's a rather cool Aya. Is it based on that heroes mod I've seen?

I've been so busy with my own stuff I haven't really had any chance to play anyone else's civs, but the idea of building up a hero Aya does seem kind of interesting...

 

[Prairial]

Oooh, that's a rather cool Aya. Is it based on that heroes mod I've seen?

Yes, but the heroes mod is quite complex. So I almost rewrote all the related XML and LUA codes.

 

[nvdr]

Well since you're here, I'll ask about the things I wanted to know:

I noticed there were higher strength versions of the Aya unit received at writing, but I never actually received any version other than the initial, even as a replacement, as is the standard for hero units like her.

I also never figured out what the "news material" I was apparently receiving was doing for me, although I did appreciate the tech stealing. My best guess while playing the mod was that it'd add great writer points in my capital, but it did no such thing.

I'm pretty sure I had all the prerequisites mentioned, but I could be wrong. I certainly never saw any non-standard screens or interface components, even though they're shown in your screencaps.

Is there a reason there's only 3 promotions for the Journalists? It's very simple to fill out all three and have nothing else to spend their EXP on. They're too weak to survive actually being attacked after a certain point and they aren't actually combat units, so letting the EXP be saved up for autoheals is kinda pointless.

It's still a mod that I think is good though, even though certain parts don't seem to work for me.

Oh also, the capital's name is misspelled as "Bunbunmaru Newpaper" instead of "Newspaper".

 

[Prairial]

Well since you're here, I'll ask about the things I wanted to know:

I noticed there were higher strength versions of the Aya unit received at writing, but I never actually received any version other than the initial, even as a replacement, as is the standard for hero units like her.

I also never figured out what the "news material" I was apparently receiving was doing for me, although I did appreciate the tech stealing. My best guess while playing the mod was that it'd add great writer points in my capital, but it did no such thing.

I'm pretty sure I had all the prerequisites mentioned, but I could be wrong. I certainly never saw any non-standard screens or interface components, even though they're shown in your screencaps.

Is there a reason there's only 3 promotions for the Journalists? It's very simple to fill out all three and have nothing else to spend their EXP on. They're too weak to survive actually being attacked after a certain point and they aren't actually combat units, so letting the EXP be saved up for autoheals is kinda pointless.

It's still a mod that I think is good though, even though certain parts don't seem to work for me.

Oh also, the capital's name is misspelled as "Bunbunmaru Newpaper" instead of "Newspaper".

You can upgrade Aya in the News Materials window, which will popup after clicking the "news materials" in the Top Panel. But If the string of top panel cannot show in your mod... maybe it is a BUG...

The UI design of current version is not quite user-friendly, will be improved in next version.

In fact, in the first version, the Journalist was just a non-combat unit as settler, worker or archaeologist. But such units cannot pass across neutral or enemy units. So I just increased the combat in order to improve movement ability of the Journalist. The reason why they have only 3 promotions is just that I have no good ideas of promotions.

 

[nvdr]

Ah well, that answers the "news material" purpose question as well, although it brings up another: why am I not seeing that UI element? I'll see if it's not just a mod conflict somehow somewhere.

As for journalist promotions, something to make them more durable? And maybe something to let them deal with terrain penalties from forest/jungle better? More vision could also be useful, since they can't actually fight, so seeing threats from further could help. Since they aren't actually used for combat I'd say it'd be hard to make them overpowered other than as scouting units. (Or meat shields in a war, I guess.)

EDIT: turned off cultural capitals and the option was there. I suppose it's just a conflict in regards to alteration of the bar at the top, then. Not a huge deal, but worth noting, I guess.

 

[Prairial]

Ah well, that answers the "news material" purpose question as well, although it brings up another: why am I not seeing that UI element? I'll see if it's not just a mod conflict somehow somewhere.

As for journalist promotions, something to make them more durable? And maybe something to let them deal with terrain penalties from forest/jungle better? More vision could also be useful, since they can't actually fight, so seeing threats from further could help. Since they aren't actually used for combat I'd say it'd be hard to make them overpowered other than as scouting units. (Or meat shields in a war, I guess.)

EDIT: turned off cultural capitals and the option was there. I suppose it's just a conflict in regards to alteration of the bar at the top, then. Not a huge deal, but worth noting, I guess.

I didn't modify the TopPanel.lua, but pushed the label into the UI stack of the top panel. So if the previous UI elements fill all the panel, Aya's top message will disappear.

Of course the journalists are too weak, but better than an archaeologist, isn't it? And in most cases, the journalists are just running from a city to another city to collect new materials(or steal technologies), so they need no fighting promotion, I think.

 

[nvdr]

Well, it's not so much combat promotions as survival promotions, like the ones scouts can get, that I was suggesting. I'm not sure if it was the intent, but I kinda look at the journalist UU as being more or less a scout unit, even if they're more just running between cities and racking up news material than uncovering fog of war. Although they are quite good at dealing with the fog in territory where you don't have open borders. The ability to handle being attacked would be useful, is all.

Also, I assume the AI totally can not use the news material mechanic.

 

[2hu2good]

After all this time, the thread still lives? AND all of this amazing progress has been made?

You've all outdone yourselves, I love it so. Those spell cards look VERY promising. And so many new civs...

I'm speechless. It's wonderful, that's all I can say.

Oh, there is one thing I'd like to suggest, regarding the original post at the start of the thread. With all this work being done to the civs, and so many new civs added, perhaps the OP could be updated to include newer civs and links to their threads/downloads?

 

[Huitzil37]

There's bunches of Yumemi art on safebooru and such... but most of it is Yumemi against a red-colored abstract background with crosses and such. I could potentially try to make a diplo screen using an image of Yumemi against a custom background, maybe... but eh, it's not a high priority.

I think you should, at least eventually, get a new diplomacy pic. It's not so much that Chiyuri is int he picture, that could be fine, it's that she's in the picture at the same level of size and focus as Yumemi. She's on the left, too, so most people will "read" her first. It's just too much emphasis on someone who's not the leader.

Huitzil is really amazing at making civs that fit their leaders. I'm jealous! ;__;

Oh, great, now you made it so I can't just release Yuuka and say "oh, her AI doesn't know how to use her abilities, I'll figure it out eventually."

I don't know if Suika's that friendly with her neighbours. It's been a while since I played against her, but I recall her being a decent enough warmonger in previous games. Her combination of expansionism and aggression mean she'll try to settle cities as wide as she can, then start going to war against people. On the other hand, I believe her Loyalty is set fairly high (a trait I think she shares with Genghis). So if you make friends with her she's unlikely to backstab you. But maybe I should set her conquest flavor up more like Utsuho's...

I've never, ever started near Suika and not had her declare war on me when I looked weak. She's definitely aggressive as is, and VERY early on.

 

[bouncymischa]

I think you should, at least eventually, get a new diplomacy pic. It's not so much that Chiyuri is int he picture, that could be fine, it's that she's in the picture at the same level of size and focus as Yumemi. She's on the left, too, so most people will "read" her first. It's just too much emphasis on someone who's not the leader.

I'll start looking through the art I can find and see... but when I did it before, I found very few pictures that shouted "diplomacy screen" at me. Although, I have been considering simply compositing one with the Alphes-style Yumemi art and a suitable background, the way I did for Shinki.

In the meantime, my brother made one suggestion for me -- simply mirror reversing the image, so that Yumemi appears on the left. As you say, people "read" the person on the left as being the speaker, so if I do that, it should help.

EDIT: Composite picture success! Expect a new Yumemi diplomatic picture in the future~

Oh, great, now you made it so I can't just release Yuuka and say "oh, her AI doesn't know how to use her abilities, I'll figure it out eventually."

Honestly, you should still release her. As it stands, I'm starting to suspect that the AI can't use Yumemi efficiently... but I'm stressing myself out so much over trying to figure out how to fix her without a complete rebuild, it's ruining my enjoyment for modding. So I'm instead going to try and just forge ahead with getting her published, and I'll deal with figuring out how to fix her after. At least I've had people like DarkScythe and ViceVirtuoso giving me encouragement...

But I do worry that Yuuka has become a kind of sword of Damocles over your head... so I'd like to see you just post it and say "the AI doesn't do well with her, but it's fun for players"...

I've never, ever started near Suika and not had her declare war on me when I looked weak. She's definitely aggressive as is, and VERY early on.

Speaking of Suika, I managed to work out what I think will be some fun new improvements I can make with her that won't devolve into unnecessary complexity... so once I get Yumemi out she'll definitely be in the pipeline!

(Honestly, with Mima and Marisa still not-quite-ready-to-test, I could use a new civ to test with...)

I do wonder if I should try and incorporate something like Prarial's spell cards in the Kishin... I have no clue how they work, though, so it might be a bigger hurdle than I'm ready to tackle yet.

 

[nvdr]

The stuff about Suika is just my person experiences with her, and I'll admit I've almost never been next to her in the early game.

The few times I've been near the major aggressors in terms of touhous, they've never really bothered me, actually. My first Keine game had me right near Utsuho, but we remained peaceful the whole time, despite the level of aggression I see from her frequently. I've done a lot less settling of second cities and building of troops over time as well, but I've almost never had an AI declare on me. (Save for that one Shinki test game where I was near Attila.) One of my Yumemi test games had me next to Yuuka and she was never aggressive.

Perhaps I'm just really lucky with AIs not wanting to attack me?

That said, I do like that Suika's getting a retool as a result of my comment, even if she doesn't actually change her personality at all. Part of the reason I've never played as her is because of how basic her uniques feel versus something like Kanako's synergistic faith stuff, for instance. (The other part is that I don't really like early game warfare and late game domination victory is too hard for me to want to do it when other options are available.)


I'm definitely interested to try a more finalized Yuuka (again, I'm still using v1 with no sunflower graphics or anything) to see what I can do with the trade route bonus while still remaining small.

 

[bouncymischa]

That said, I do like that Suika's getting a retool as a result of my comment, even if she doesn't actually change her personality at all. Part of the reason I've never played as her is because of how basic her uniques feel versus something like Kanako's synergistic faith stuff, for instance. (The other part is that I don't really like early game warfare and late game domination victory is too hard for me to want to do it when other options are available.)

Well, my current plans for Suika are as follows:

UA: Onikakushi -- Pre-gunpowder melee units heal after destroying an enemy unit and generate Golden Age points. Great General spawn rate is increased by 50%.

UU: Kishin -- Replaces the Great General. In addition to the normal bonus Great Generals provide, the Kishin is a powerful combat unit on its own, and terrorizes nearby enemy units. It cannot construct a Citadel, but can start a Golden Age. Units defeated by the Kishin may be captured and become Oni units. Adjacent friendly units gain 50% combat strength when besieging cities.

UB: Brewery -- Replaces the Granary. In addition to the normal Granary benefits, the Brewery provides a food bonus from Wine, Citrus, and Sugar. It also increases military unit by 10%. During Golden Ages, all Brewery yields are doubled, including the military unit production bonus.


The Kishin may have few too many abilities for a UU... but it is a hero unit. If I knew the spellcard system better, I'd be tempted to move these into spellcards, making it easier for a player to tailor their Kishin the way they wanted. But we'll see...

 

[Huitzil37]

I actually kinda oppose making the Kishin a fighting "hero" unit, because that makes using it up to get a Golden Age much less attractive to the player, and I think her using GGs for Golden Ages is really cool.

 

[nvdr]

Is there a way to have the golden age aspect of the Kishin have a cost other than the unit itself, while still involving the unit?

It might solve the dilemma inherent in a hero unit that can be used up, perhaps.

A thought would be to tie the golden ages to combat and conquest.

 

[bouncymischa]

Is there a way to have the golden age aspect of the Kishin have a cost other than the unit itself, while still involving the unit?

It might solve the dilemma inherent in a hero unit that can be used up, perhaps.

A thought would be to tie the golden ages to combat and conquest.

Possibly. I'd have to look and see if other people found ways to activate golden ages with triggers, although I think worse case scenario I'd have to spawn a dummy unit with the golden age ability and push the mission, then kill the unit. (I think ViceVirtuoso did something similar to create great works on demand.)

For now, I can implement the other ideas I've got first, and see how it goes...

 

[Vicevirtuoso]

Possibly. I'd have to look and see if other people found ways to activate golden ages with triggers, although I think worse case scenario I'd have to spawn a dummy unit with the golden age ability and push the mission, then kill the unit. (I think ViceVirtuoso did something similar to create great works on demand.)

This won't be necessary at all to start Golden Ages; you can just use pPlayer: ChangeGoldenAgeTurns(number). Though you'll also have to get the player's Golden Age length modifier from Traits, Buildings, and Policies prior to running it. (I think pPlayer:GetGoldenAgeLength() returns the number of turns a Golden Age should be for a player, but I haven't actually tried it)

 

[bouncymischa]

So one thought that occurs to me is making it so that you can sacrifice the Hero Kishin to start a golden age proportional to his level... say, 4 turns/level. So a high-level Kishin could make a big golden age...

 

[Hybrinoid]

Hiya! First-time poster here, but I've been a long-time fan of these mods ever since I first stumbled upon Graan's Remilia civ when searching Touhou in the workshop for giggles.

I've been thinking about making a civ myself, and I decided to start with Medicine Melancholy, my second favorite character in Touhou. Why not my all-time favorite? Well, that'd be Yuuka, and it's best to leave her to the pros, I think ^_^;

Anyway, thing is, I've yet to learn a lick of modding Civ V, but I've just started the learning process today. So, we'll see how that goes. (Also, Huitzil, you don't happen to mind if I use Utsuho's XML files as templates, do you? Aheheheh...)

The main reason I'm posting here now is to gather opinions on what Medicine's UA should be. Currently, I'm thinking she would be a very isolationist Civ, great on defense, but obviously I'd need to do it in a way that doesn't step on the toes of the Shoshone or Remilia. So I was thinking that her UA would be something along the lines of "Poison Fields": enemy units take damage every turn and suffer a combat penalty in friendly territory. (No ideas for UU/UB yet. I'm focusing on getting the thing started up first, which, uh, is probably important, right?)

Thing is, that has the potential to be absurdly overpowered very quickly depending on the number values in both traits. What do you guys think?