The Touhou Mod Development Thread

[2hu2good]

I like the sound of it. Granted, I'm not a professional Civ V modder but it all looks pretty well-done to me. Though I'd watch out in making the damage and combat penalties, maybe something like 5-10% a turn, nothing too large.

 

[Hybrinoid]

I like the sound of it. Granted, I'm not a professional Civ V modder but it all looks pretty well-done to me. Though I'd watch out in making the damage and combat penalties, maybe something like 5-10% a turn, nothing too large.

The combat penalty, I'm not *too* worried about--it's the health loss I really need to keep an eye on. Essentially, even if it's only 5 damage per turn, that's still only 20 turns an army can last in her territory max--although that doesn't take into account Medic promotions or the +50 health promotion. Really, it's something that's going to have to be decided through playtesting.

The other thing is whether or not that kind of ability can even be done through XML alone. Lua looks downright terrifying, so I'd rather avoid it for now if possible. Maybe I could take a look at the Great Wall and Citadel code to get a combination that's close to what I'm looking for, then edit it from there.

EDIT: Ah, well. The plan to study from the files was a bust--apparently, the Great Wall has a special trait specifically for reducing enemy movement by one. It's not a value that can be adjusted or anything--just a simple true/false boolean. I'll have to look somewhere else, then.

 

[nvdr]

A thought that makes the UA more complex but perhaps also less powerful, especially late game, would be to have units that aren't dudes and dudes on horses not take the damage/combat penalty. After all, an airtight helicopter or a GDR isn't really gonna care about some organic poison.

 

[Hybrinoid]

A thought that makes the UA more complex but perhaps also less powerful, especially late game, would be to have units that aren't dudes and dudes on horses not take the damage/combat penalty. After all, an airtight helicopter or a GDR isn't really gonna care about some organic poison.

Hm. While you're right about that in-universe, I'm not terribly keen on the idea of a UA that stops being useful at a certain point. I suppose if things like Landships/Tanks/Modern Armor, Gunships, Mechanized Infantry, Rocket Artillery, Mobile SAMs, and GDR's were immune to it, while things like Artillery weren't (despite being in the same age as Tanks, the men are still exposed to the air), it'd be fine, since Medicine would have gotten plenty of use out of it by that point anyway.

Actually, speaking of in-universe logic, I just realized the absurdity of the Great Wall being able to impede enemy naval movement.

 

[nvdr]

Yeah, all I was talking about is anything where the organic operators aren't exposed to the air. So infantry would remain vulnerable up until Mech Infantry, ranged units would never be immune, XCOMs wouldn't be immune, but stuff like landships and helicopter gunships and GDRs would just ignore the DoT. I'm not sure about how boats would work, I suppose they'd just become immune at Battleship/Sub/Carrier/Destroyer.

I'm not sure how it effects AI or how feasible it would be to code, but perhaps a lowered visibility effect could be done as well? Medicine uses poison gas to obscure bullets in StB, so it's not unreasonable to think she could do the same in her own territory. Since it's independent of air consumption, it could just effect all units if it's feasible.

 

[Hybrinoid]

Yeah, all I was talking about is anything where the organic operators aren't exposed to the air. So infantry would remain vulnerable up until Mech Infantry, ranged units would never be immune, XCOMs wouldn't be immune, but stuff like landships and helicopter gunships and GDRs would just ignore the DoT. I'm not sure about how boats would work, I suppose they'd just become immune at Battleship/Sub/Carrier/Destroyer.

I'm not sure how it effects AI or how feasible it would be to code, but perhaps a lowered visibility effect could be done as well? Medicine uses poison gas to obscure bullets in StB, so it's not unreasonable to think she could do the same in her own territory. Since it's independent of air consumption, it could just effect all units if it's feasible.

Well, I'd hope that complexity isn't something I can't overcome. This is all just brainstorming until I actually learn how to do this stuff--as I'm focusing on text, art, and music right now. I wonder, how much can I really do with XML alone...?

 

[Huitzil37]

A thought that makes the UA more complex but perhaps also less powerful, especially late game, would be to have units that aren't dudes and dudes on horses not take the damage/combat penalty. After all, an airtight helicopter or a GDR isn't really gonna care about some organic poison.

Not only are most of those things not actually airtight, but the dudes get out sometimes to eat and such, also, they probably don't like the horrible corrosive effect of poison clouds on all their precision mechanisms.

The advent of gunpowder is a big enough change at a middle-enough point in the game to make other things interact with it; "non-exposed personnel" really didn't revolutionize warfare and would only come late game where you've forgotten its relevance. It'd hardly ever come up and when it did it would be a negative surprise.

And if ANYONE would have immunity to Medicine's poison clouds, it'd be an XCOM Squad; Titan Armor specifically gives immunity to poisonous and corrosive clouds.

 

[nvdr]

Well the thought is perhaps somewhat unrealistic, but you have to admit that when your enemies' main defense is through organic poison, not exposing your troops to said organic poison would probably revolutionize fighting them. Very few real world nations literally blanketed their lands in deadly gas forever so saying what is and isn't realistic regarding fighting a poison controlling living doll is somewhat silly.

That said, the unit list for immunity could perhaps use refinement. I do think that the troops not being exposed to the air is a good baseline though.

 

[DeletedSettler]

saying what is and isn't realistic regarding fighting a poison controlling living doll is somewhat silly.

This, basically. In a world of little girls from a shmup being modded into a game which is already pretty hilariously unrealistic even if you go for the "historical!!!" angle, I think we can safely dismiss being un/realistic as an argument for anything about anything. For the sake of gameplay understandability, it should either be everything or a clearly-defined set of units (Pre-Industrial, All Except Armor, etc.). Making weird exceptions for Artillery or whatever is confusing.

For some reason I'm thinking the poison fields would work great as an improvement. Workers making Citadel Lites, more or less. They could have a yield to help tempt you to put them around, and maybe an upgrade with a late technology. All the defensive poison goodness, but it needs placed and adjusted as borders grow, and could be bypassed/ignored entirely depending on the map and enemy approach, like navies.

But then what would the UA be? Buh. Nevermind. Posting anyawy.

 

[bouncymischa]

I am already hoping to implement something like that with Marisa's Mushroom Patches, as for the time being they act as weak Citadels in addition to their other effects. Given that the mushrooms tend to be more disorienting than toxic, though, I'll likely try and later make it more of a penalty to combat strength in the future.

The idea of a "poison gas cloud" UI is interesting, though -- at one point, for Mima I was experimenting with a kind of "miasma" UI, and had some graphics that would potentially work. I later switched Mima over to her current Crypt UI, but still have the graphics for the 'miasma' that might be usable...

 

[Hybrinoid]

For some reason I'm thinking the poison fields would work great as an improvement. Workers making Citadel Lites, more or less. They could have a yield to help tempt you to put them around, and maybe an upgrade with a late technology. All the defensive poison goodness, but it needs placed and adjusted as borders grow, and could be bypassed/ignored entirely depending on the map and enemy approach, like navies.

I had basically an identical idea, but then I ran into the problem of...

But then what would the UA be? Buh. Nevermind. Posting anyawy.

...Yeah. Additionally, I see Medicine's poisons as her strongest weapon, (and the most important part of her character, as her chosen home and devotion to the Suzurans really doesn't allow her too many interactions with other characters) so it'd make sense for it to be her UA.

That said, there are two parts of Medicine's character I want to emphasize with this Civ: her ability, and her mission. Her ability (and general "get-off-my-lawn" attitude towards others) is pretty well exemplified in the current UA. Her mission, to liberate all dolls (let's just pretend for a minute that it's completely justified ), is apparent in the Civ name (Doll Liberation Force) and some of her dialogue, but it's something I might try to theme one or both of her uniques after.

...Or I could just go for more poison-related stuff. Maybe incorporate both ideas? A UA that gives a combat penalty to enemy units in friendly territory, a UI that works as a mini-Citadel for pure damage output (no defensive bonuses or any silly nonsense like that for Medicine's troops), and a UU that...uh...Aaaaah-hhmmmm. I'll have to think more about that one. And Bouncymischa, that would be fantastic to use if I do end up going with the poison cloud UI! Granted, I currently have no idea how I'd add such a graphic to the game, but that is what the grand invention known as the Internet is for!

On an unrelated note, while searching for background music to use, I came across something I never thought I'd find--a Vocaloid remix of Forsaken Doll. Watermill Cello, I love you.

 

[bouncymischa]

And Bouncymischa, that would be fantastic to use if I do end up going with the poison cloud UI! Granted, I currently have no idea how I'd add such a graphic to the game, but that is what the grand invention known as the Internet is for!

I've been cranking out UIs for my civs, so I can help you set it up, if you want. Might have to play around with the coloration a bit to make it look poison-gassy, but that shouldn't be too hard, since the original texture had a pretty sickly looking appearance.

 

[nvdr]

Regarding the coloration of a poison gas UI, you can basically just match it to Medicine's gas in StB, I'd think. It's a bright purple type color that would be nice and recognizable against any terrain in civ.

Spoiler :

EDIT: Now that I look at those screencaps a bit the clouds look like purple fallout.

 

[bouncymischa]

Since it's been a while since anyone posted in this thread, I figured I'd include an update on what I've been working on, at least. Here's the current version of Marisa's Forest of Magic civ, which is at least in a mostly playable state. I do need to add diplomatic text, so there'll be some issues if playing against her as an opponent.

Marisa's Forest of Magic

EDIT: Figured I should include details about the uniques:

UA: Mushroom Magic. Founding cities reveals Mushroom Patches within 3 hexes of the city, and claims those tiles. Marshes generate +1 Science, and spies steal technologies faster.

(Mushroom Patches are improvements that produce either +1 Food, +1 Production, or +1 Science, determined at random. They generate increased yields with the discovery of Engineering and Gunpowder. Mushroom Patches also cause nearby enemy units to lose 10 HP, much like a Citadel. After a city has been founded, new Mushroom Patches will be revealed every 20 turns, until the city reaches a maximum of 5 within the 3 hex radius.)

UB: Atelier. Replaces the Workshop. In addition to the normal bonuses of the Workshop, the Atelier causes Forest tiles to generate +1 Science.

UU: Witch. Replaces the Cannon. Unlike the Cannon, the Witch does not need to set up to fire.

I've still got some changes I'd like to make with the civ. For one, the fact that there are three different kinds of Mushroom Patches means they clutter up the tech tree a bit with their yield bonuses. They also give their yields to whoever controls the city, even if it's been captured and held by someone else. So I've got plans to switch to a Policy-based version that'll only give yields to the Forest of Magic civ, and clean up the tech tree a bit. I'd also like to add a "Mini-Hakkero" ability to the Witch -- if the unit hasn't moved yet, you can use the Mini-Hakkero to increase the Witch's damage, at the cost of giving up the unit's movement for the turn. (In effect, a version of the Set Up ability for normal artillery units.) But the current version is working enough to get some feedback, at least!

 

[nvdr]

I ran a test game with my normal method of play and she did pretty well. It took a bit to get going but I pulled off a pretty standard late game, with both culture and science victory being viable. (Helps that I won the International Games build race, in terms of culture victory.) The Mushrooms were interesting, and were pretty high yield in the late game which was nice.

I'm not actually sure how much the +1 science from forest workshop helped, but it's an interesting bonus. (I had no marshes so that part of the UA bonus was totally useless for me.) The witch went entirely unused because I'm a scrub who plays peacefully.

Also the colors are great. Perhaps the absolute best in any Touhou mod civ. I certainly can't think of any better schemes offhand.

EDIT: Forgot to mention it, but I was kinda amused when I got a spy named Alice when I was playing with the Alice/Nitori/Yukari set active. I made sure to promptly send her to Alice's House simply for the inherent oddness of it.

 

[bouncymischa]

I ran a test game with my normal method of play and she did pretty well. It took a bit to get going but I pulled off a pretty standard late game, with both culture and science victory being viable. (Helps that I won the International Games build race, in terms of culture victory.) The Mushrooms were interesting, and were pretty high yield in the late game which was nice.

I'm not actually sure how much the +1 science from forest workshop helped, but it's an interesting bonus. (I had no marshes so that part of the UA bonus was totally useless for me.) The witch went entirely unused because I'm a scrub who plays peacefully.

Also the colors are great. Perhaps the absolute best in any Touhou mod civ. I certainly can't think of any better schemes offhand.

EDIT: Forgot to mention it, but I was kinda amused when I got a spy named Alice when I was playing with the Alice/Nitori/Yukari set active. I made sure to promptly send her to Alice's House simply for the inherent oddness of it.

Thanks for the feedback nvdr!

So far Marisa seems fairly straightforwards, and relatively viable. I've been doing all right with her in my own test games, so nice to others are finding the same. The Atelier bonus does seem highly terrain dependent -- in my first test game I had plenty of forest, but in my second the area mostly has marsh and jungle, so there's less of a bonus from them. Still, the idea of getting science from forests was one I had early on and helps reflect Marisa's mushroom experiments, so I'll likely keep it. I'm debating if I should add a slot for a Great Work of Literature, since she does make her own grimoires, perhaps with an additional bonus when the slot is filled. Still, a Workshop is a good building in its own right, so I'm not sure it needs too much more of a bonus.

The Witch seems to be a good unit as well... being able to move and shoot is quite impressive with it. The Mini-Hakkero bonus will likely make them even more devastating... X3

As for the spies, I was a bit short on ideas for names, so ultimately just went with people associated with the Forest of Magic. It's a bit weird, given that you could have Alice as a leader and Alice as a spy, but aside from that I think I can mostly get away with it...

And I'm glad you like the colors! I wanted to do something close to "black and white", but without going fully that way since city-states and the Buccanneers already use it. Originally I was going to do a deep blue and silver, but when I decided to emphasize the Forest of Magic aspect, I decided to go with the deep green and cream. It's turned out quite nicely, and works well with her mushroom icon.

Also, one last note -- one quirk I forgot to mention before is that, aside from the capital, all of Marisa's cities get randomized names. What's more, they're assigned dynamically, depending on the terrain you found the city in. So there's a set of names for cities founded along rivers, a set of names for cities near mountains, and so on...

 

[nvdr]

Also, one last note -- one quirk I forgot to mention before is that, aside from the capital, all of Marisa's cities get randomized names. What's more, they're assigned dynamically, depending on the terrain you found the city in. So there's a set of names for cities founded along rivers, a set of names for cities near mountains, and so on...

I did actually notice that her city list was odd when I looked at the file. Since I don't actually make settlers usually I never saw it happen in game. It's a pretty cool idea, even if I'd question the idea of Marisa having a desert city. I assume the mushroom mechanic only looks for land tiles, and doesn't care about actual viability of the land for mushrooms?


Also, I actually played on the Arborea map type, the one that generates huge amounts of forest. Perhaps I should have noticed more of a science buff than I did, or I'm just bad at paying attention. She definitely didn't seem unusually strong scientifically though.

A thought regarding the Literature slot in the workshop would be to have it give a tech steal bonus of some kind, like Industrial Espionage in the Autocracy ideology tree. The titular grimoire of the Grimoire of Marisa is her notes on the spells of others and how viable using them herself would be. It'd be even better if it required a non-Forest of Magic work of writing to get the bonus. (Even if you can get that diplomatically.)

By the way, if Reimu's colors are more or less a red/white equivalent of Marisa's then that should be a pretty top tier combo as well. (I'm also trying to figure out if Shinki has the most garish combo that I've seen and I'm edging toward yes.)

EDIT: As a final note about the initial Marisa test game, I also had Suika active, and big surprise, she did virtually nothing of note all game.

 

[bouncymischa]

I did actually notice that her city list was odd when I looked at the file. Since I don't actually make settlers usually I never saw it happen in game. It's a pretty cool idea, even if I'd question the idea of Marisa having a desert city. I assume the mushroom mechanic only looks for land tiles, and doesn't care about actual viability of the land for mushrooms?

The mushroom mechanic actually does care about terrain -- it won't spawn mushrooms on desert, tundra or snow tiles. Forests, jungles, and marshes have the highest probability for mushrooms appearing -- approximately 67%, I think. Mushrooms have around a 1/6 chance of appearing in plains and grasslands tiles.

So while Marisa can found desert or arctic cities, they likely won't have much in the way of mushrooms.

Also, I actually played on the Arborea map type, the one that generates huge amounts of forest. Perhaps I should have noticed more of a science buff than I did, or I'm just bad at paying attention. She definitely didn't seem unusually strong scientifically though.

A thought regarding the Literature slot in the workshop would be to have it give a tech steal bonus of some kind, like Industrial Espionage in the Autocracy ideology tree. The titular grimoire of the Grimoire of Marisa is her notes on the spells of others and how viable using them herself would be. It'd be even better if it required a non-Forest of Magic work of writing to get the bonus. (Even if you can get that diplomatically.)

There are ways to do that, and it would let me take the espionage element out of the UA to streamline it, so it might be worth considering. It's a bit tricky, since it basically requires keeping count of how many buildings you have that meet the criteria, and adjusting policies to suit, but I know one of the other mod civs (I think possibly the Durrani?) had already done it, so I could probably borrow their code.

By the way, if Reimu's colors are more or less a red/white equivalent of Marisa's then that should be a pretty top tier combo as well. (I'm also trying to figure out if Shinki has the most garish combo that I've seen and I'm edging toward yes.)

For Reimu, I'm planning to go with a wine-red (something like England's red, as opposed to Persia's) and cream (rather like Marisa).

Poor Shinki... I rather like her colors, myself, but they don't seem to be terribly popular. But Makai does have a lot of freaky colors, so I suppose it makes sense for her to have a rather alien color scheme...

EDIT: As a final note about the initial Marisa test game, I also had Suika active, and big surprise, she did virtually nothing of note all game.

Poor Suika! She's been in my last two test games, and has been a suitable warmonger (declaring war on Norway in the first, and on Greece in the second, as well as provoking all of her neighbours to ask me to go to war against her), so that part of her personality works. But she doesn't seem to be terribly effective at warmongering -- I know in any game with Shaka, I invariably get a warning that someone has lost their capital to him before I even meet him. It'd be nice if Suika could be similar threatening...

She is in the pipeline for an update, though, since I have new graphics for the Kishin and she's the only civ of mine that doesn't use Lua. Currently, I'm looking at giving her bonuses during a Golden Age (in particular, have the Brewery double all of its yields), so that might help her boost growth and military production. Leugi's working on a Brewery UB for his Philistines that is a happiness building replacing the Colosseum, and it has the interesting feature of giving units a unique promotion that increases their movement while the empire is happy, which was an interesting idea. Having Suika's civ encourage keeping your empire happy (and drunken) to gain military bonuses could be cool, especially since the AI has a knack for keeping their empires happy... meaning an AI Suika would be more of a military threat...

 

[bouncymischa]

Also, since Sukritact's Decisions mod is now entering beta, and most of my civs are due for some tweaks anyways, I could use some help brainstorming possible Decisions for each civ. Suika may end up being the test-bed for it (since she's due for an update), although both Marisa and Mima could use them as well.

With Suika, I'm guessing at least one Decision should revolve around holding a drunken feast, much like in Immaterial and Missing Power. Could result in a golden age and bonuses to influence/diplomatic relations, but would likely require a big expenditure of gold, or possibly stall production, or something...

 

[nvdr]

A thought for Suika's decisions based on my understanding of the EU4 inspiration:

Requires X amount of money and you also must have a certain amount of a hypothetical sake resource from breweries. Perhaps other requirements, I don't quite know what all the mod tracks for requirements.

Yields a small military force (including a kishin) and a little extra happiness. (+1 or +2 I'd guess.)

Could even make it give a unique army of oni units in line with the demons Makai gets through their UA, but have the Oni only get them via this decision.


I'll see if I can figure anything out for the other touhou civs.