The Touhou Mod Development Thread

[Apolodog]

First off, I attached the master audio defines files, for you to make sure I didn't break anything. Every filename it points to uses the format Name_War, except for Suika, because the Suika mod music is named SuikaWar and SuikaPeace, so it will still be compatible. I've had some crashes lately, but am not sure if this is mod instability, or if adding so much to the audio defines scripts makes the game unstable.

Second off, I tried playing the Kappa civ, and sadly to say, I don't like them at all. Marshes are rarer than hills or desert or forest (the kind of features other civs focus on, basic or modded), the attack penalty in marsh makes no sense and just makes it harder to fight off invaders, and I don't like their UI -- it gives +3 Science, but nothing else, and marshes only have 1 food. So unlike, say, Utsuho Reiuji's mines, focusing on Nitori's research-boosting improvement doesn't trade growth for something else (production), it just hampers growth. And their UU just comes way, way, way too late.

Honestly... that's like, your opinion man.
It's not my fault if you don't like marshes, the UU is supposed to come late as a reward for focusing on science (and also because nuclear fusion is a recurrent topic in touhou), I didn't add food and more science to the UI because I thought it could be OP, guess it isn't. The attack penalty shows pacifism for the kappas, you'd think kappas would use their technological advantage rather than charging into the fray with sticks and stones, the fact that they live in the marsh upgrades defense as a sign that they know their territory and how to use it to their advantage, and the attack penalty shows their disgust for cqc conflicts and the fact that they could damage their own homes. Marshes aren't found everywhere, in touhou you hardly spot kappas outside the youkai mountain, also, if you can go around making rivers a viable feature, be my guest. And please stop comparing my mods to yours, you aren't some sort of expert modder whose work is vastly superior and I don't think my work has to be similar in the slightest to yours, we have different ways of modding, that's the way it is, I'm not going to adapt to your ways.

 

[bouncymischa]

Well there's no compelling reason to change it now.

Do you know if adding too many audio defines makes the game unstable?

It shouldn't... have you encountered any issues with it?

Also, I'm currently debating over the Human Village/Hitozato civ's trait... originally, my idea was to have them gain +1 Growth from Farms and Pastures. However, I'm debating a different version that would give them a free Worker each time they founded a city...

Any ideas which might be better/more interesting?

 

[Huitzil37]

I'm not saying that you have to be like me. I'm not saying I'm the best modder ever. I'm saying why I don't think the mod works, and comparing the UI for the civ to what is honestly the closest thing to it I've seen, as both of them are improvements that give +research at a cost of slowing growth.

I don't want to insult you to say "you have to do it exactly like this this and this", but the civ just isn't fun. It becomes a slog the moment barbarians walk into one of my marshes and I can't make them go away.

But if you want to make them river-focused, and get a bonus for cities on rivers, I DID just test it, and that idea I had worked: set their trait to have a <FreeBuilding> that isn't normally buildable, and then set that building to <River>true</River>, and it will be given free to cities on rivers but not appear in non-river cities. Make that building provide whatever bonus you want their cities to have from rivers, and there you go.

 

[Huitzil37]

It shouldn't... have you encountered any issues with it?

I don't know, that's the problem. I have had a few crashes but I don't know if it was caused by a big audio defines file or the other mods I was running or existing instability in civ v itself.

Also, I'm currently debating over the Human Village/Hitozato civ's trait... originally, my idea was to have them gain +1 Growth from Farms and Pastures. However, I'm debating a different version that would give them a free Worker each time they founded a city...

Any ideas which might be better/more interesting?

Well, the "free worker every city" thing would seem to support a fast-expansion style of play. It sounds a bit more interesting than food from farms and pastures, if a wide expansionist style is what you want them to have. It doesn't seem like enough to carry its own ability though -- seems like it'd need "Free Worker on city construction and [X]", if for no other reason than eventually you have your cities all improved out and you probably want their civ ability to be "dead" in that case. Heck, maybe it'd be best to just give them both.


Oh, and here's the build of the Eientei civ: http://depositfiles.com/files/f8lzxgq6t
Everything is done but the dialogue (since I used Fairy Alliance as a template, she has Cirno's dialogue with the word "fairy" replaced by "EIENTEI" and "Cirno" with "EIRIN" after I found-replaced it in all the tags), but I almost definitely need to get a better picture for the Apothecary, as it is an unreadable mass of squiggles at any size under 256x256. Would appreciate any feedback.

 

[bouncymischa]

I don't know, that's the problem. I have had a few crashes but I don't know if it was caused by a big audio defines file or the other mods I was running or existing instability in civ v itself.

Hrm... I'll try adding it in this weekend and giving it a try...

Well, the "free worker every city" thing would seem to support a fast-expansion style of play. It sounds a bit more interesting than food from farms and pastures, if a wide expansionist style is what you want them to have. It doesn't seem like enough to carry its own ability though -- seems like it'd need "Free Worker on city construction and [X]", if for no other reason than eventually you have your cities all improved out and you probably want their civ ability to be "dead" in that case. Heck, maybe it'd be best to just give them both.

Well, my basic thoughts about the Human Village were that it's basically a society of farmers and shopkeepers. Their UB is a Market replacement that I'm pretty happy with, to reflect the shops of the Human Village that pretty much everyone else frequents. Thinking about it, I started to ponder how the Human Village is probably pretty much the only place in Gensokyo that has proper farms (Mayohiga might, since it's referred to as a community, but I'm not sure... Eientei might have a little agriculture with the rabbits and all), so I was leaning towards focusing on improvements. I was tempted to give their units a promotion to help them fight stronger around farms, but that would likely apply to anyone's farms, so that's not so good.

I might try giving them both the food bonus and the extra workers... if nothing else, it gives a sort of steady progression, where your workers build up farms that help you out. I'll have to see if I end up with boom cities or not. X3

Oh, and here's the build of the Eientei civ: http://depositfiles.com/files/f8lzxgq6t
Everything is done but the dialogue (since I used Fairy Alliance as a template, she has Cirno's dialogue with the word "fairy" replaced by "EIENTEI" and "Cirno" with "EIRIN" after I found-replaced it in all the tags), but I almost definitely need to get a better picture for the Apothecary, as it is an unreadable mass of squiggles at any size under 256x256. Would appreciate any feedback.

I'll take a look at it and see if I can test it a bit this weekend :3

 

[Huitzil37]

I just looked at the Steam Workshop, and saw someone made a Madoka Magical Girl civilization.

Its ability is "Start with Archery, Great Person tile improvements get +2 food, production, and gold".

God. DAMMIT.

 

[bouncymischa]

I just looked at the Steam Workshop, and saw someone made a Madoka Magical Girl civilization.

Its ability is "Start with Archery, Great Person tile improvements get +2 food, production, and gold".

God. DAMMIT.

Huh, I saw that when I was cruising through the workshop to find interesting-looking new civs to download (and grab the Touhou ones I hadn't gotten yet, like Utsuho) but I never checked it out since it wasn't quite what I was looking for.

Is that what you did with Eientei? I downloaded it last night, but that was right before I headed to bed so I didn't actually look at the XML, just your art files. If you feel the need to change it, we could toss out some other ideas... I think there's ways to generate increased GP production, maybe?

Also, figured I'll toss up the current ideas I've got for the Human Village for any discussion while I'm at work:

UA: Agrarian Society - New cities come with one free Worker. Farms and Pastures generate +1 Food.
UB: Village Shop - Replaces Market. Same bonuses as Market, but also generates +1 Gold from each bonus resource located within the city's borders.
UU: Youkai Hunter - Replaces Crossbowman. Probably the same stats, with increased sight range and Indirect Fire promotions.

I can't remember exactly what the Lunar Defense Corps has, so I'm hoping the Youkai Hunter isn't too similar to it...

 

[bouncymischa]

Also, as an aside... I was considering the fact that Gensokyo doesn't seem to have too many groups that would be suited for working towards a cultural victory, and while tossing around possible ideas for a more culture-oriented civ, I got to thinking about Mayohiga. One of my favorite moments in the Touhou games was in Perfect Cherry Blossom, where Reimu confronts Chen in Mayohiga and comments that Mayohiga is supposed to have items that would give you good fortune, ending with the comment "Let the plundering begin!". So I'm tempted to plan to make Mayohiga once Brave New World comes out, as a civ focused on Great Works and archeological relics...

 

[Huitzil37]

Eientei's ability is "+25% generation of Great People (except Generals). +3 Food from Great Person tile improvements." So it's pretty similar. I'll wait to see what others think about playing the civ to decide if and how to change it.

Also, speaking of culture, Eientei's two victory conditions are supposed to be scientific and cultural. So there's that.

 

[bouncymischa]

Eientei's ability is "+25% generation of Great People (except Generals). +3 Food from Great Person tile improvements." So it's pretty similar. I'll wait to see what others think about playing the civ to decide if and how to change it.

Also, speaking of culture, Eientei's two victory conditions are supposed to be scientific and cultural. So there's that.

Ahhh, I see! Thinking about it, Eientei does seem like one of the few groups that could plausibly aim for a culture victory. (I'm not sure why, but Kaguya just seems like the cultural type.) If nothing else, maybe we can look at ways to boost their science/culture output.

What does the Apothecary do?

 

[Huitzil37]

It replaces the Colosseum, so it has +2 Happiness, and then +25% (more) GP generation and two Scientist specialist slots (which in turn increases your Great Scientist generation).

Kaguya has the whole "cultural exhibition of the Moon" deal going on, so it's not really a stretch at all.

And the Lunar Defense Force is a Musketman with +20% strength in friendly lands and a movement rate of 3, so not really like the Youkai Hunter at all.

 

[bouncymischa]

It replaces the Colosseum, so it has +2 Happiness, and then +25% (more) GP generation and two Scientist specialist slots (which in turn increases your Great Scientist generation).

Kaguya has the whole "cultural exhibition of the Moon" deal going on, so it's not really a stretch at all.

And the Lunar Defense Force is a Musketman with +20% strength in friendly lands and a movement rate of 3, so not really like the Youkai Hunter at all.

Oh yeah! I'd completely forgotten about that... that's awesome! I think it could be possible to add something like "Get X culture from GP improvements located near the capital", which could be an amusing way to reference that. X3 Probably also would be worth referencing when BNW comes out, eventually.

The Apothecary does sound pretty cool, though, and I'd been hoping the Lunar Defense Force would be a gunpowder unit. You're right it isn't like the Youkai Hunter at all... I just vaguely recalled someone talking about an Indirect Fire unit, for some reason, so I wasn't sure. Ah well!

 

[Apolodog]

I'm not saying that you have to be like me. I'm not saying I'm the best modder ever. I'm saying why I don't think the mod works, and comparing the UI for the civ to what is honestly the closest thing to it I've seen, as both of them are improvements that give +research at a cost of slowing growth.

I don't want to insult you to say "you have to do it exactly like this this and this", but the civ just isn't fun. It becomes a slog the moment barbarians walk into one of my marshes and I can't make them go away.

But if you want to make them river-focused, and get a bonus for cities on rivers, I DID just test it, and that idea I had worked: set their trait to have a <FreeBuilding> that isn't normally buildable, and then set that building to <River>true</River>, and it will be given free to cities on rivers but not appear in non-river cities. Make that building provide whatever bonus you want their cities to have from rivers, and there you go.

Oh please, don't talk like your opinion is shared by everyone.
Your idea of a river-trait is boring, I thought about it but scrapped it because it's too simple and uninteresting, you might like to play it safe, but I like to do something that interest me, and I shouldn't have to stand subjective assertions like "it doesn't work because it's not fun". About marshes, wouldn't it be more useful to defend the marshes rather than waiting for enemy units to get there before you send yours to attack. Also, I explained why I made those traits and UI, so it's not "because I say so". There are HUNDREDS of mods out there, not only yours has UB like mine. Lastly, if your intentions aren't to insult and just point flaws, make it seem like you have good intentions, there is absolutely no way I'm going to listen to someone who just criticizes, and in such subjective ways also.

 

[2hu2good]

>Be me
>Be looking at Apolodog and Huitzil37 doing a heated exchange of opinions
>My face when


Calm down, guys, we're all brothers and sister in the modding community and the Touhou fandom, ok? Let's all try and be respectful and kind to one another, otherwise this idea of working on our Touhou mods together will be all for naught.

 

[bouncymischa]

Calm down, guys, we're all brothers and sister in the modding community and the Touhou fandom, ok? Let's all try and be respectful and kind to one another, otherwise this idea of working on our Touhou mods together will be all for naught.

Eheheh... well, I can understand where both are coming from... so it's hard to know what to say...

 

[2hu2good]

And it looks like the project is dead. Fabulous.

 

[bouncymischa]

And it looks like the project is dead. Fabulous.

Not dead, just... sleeping! Or we can resurrect it as a cute zombie, like Yoshika?

Actually, I was just thinking of posting in this thread to generate some discussion, because I've started thinking about ideas for a "Forest of Magic" civ. From what I've read, the Human Village doesn't really encompass the inhabitants of the Forest of Magic, although the Kirisame family did have a shop in the Human Village at one point. So I started thinking about what kind of civ could represent Marisa, Alice, and Rinnosuke, and some intruiging ideas appealed to me.

A few months back, for my own entertainment, I created a fantasy mod to play around with, and it included a new strategic resources called Mana Crystals that was generated by certain buildings, and could be used to build other buildings in the form of summoning circles and the like. So I'm tempted to create an Atelier UB for the Forest of Magic, replacing the Workshop, that gives them this resource (much like Cirno gets Crayons) that they can then use to build enchanting circles, or summoning circles, or whatever.

For a UU, I'm guessing some version of Alice's Dolls. Alternatively, some kind of Witch unit?

For a UA... it'd be hard to resist some version of "Stealing the Precious Thing", although I'm not really sure how I'd implement it. Perhaps I could just do a generic "Thaumaturgy" or something, with a science bonus? Hmm...

EDIT: Arguably, since what I've got in mind right now lets you potentially access promotions, new units, and new buildings, perhaps it'd be easiest just to fold all of that into the UA. Basically, Thaumaturgy says "Gains the ability to create magical circles, allowing you to construct unique buildings, units, and access new promotions" or something.

I'm not sure if I should be planning a new civ, but the Human Village is about 50% complete, and with Huitzil's help I've been getting the Oni civilization Steam-ready, so it's nice to have something new to brainstorm on.

 

[Kiefmaster99]

Hello. As you may or may not know, I was the main English ver. coordinator/TLer/whatever for Touhou Epic (&#26481;&#26041;&#21465;&#20107;&#35433;, Touhou Jojishi).

Now, I do support your efforts to create a new mod, and can come up with a few ideas. I am very familiar with Touhou Epic (obviously) so if there are any questions you have about how that mod worked, balance, flavour, etc, I can answer them.

I have experience modding Civ4, but little regarding Civ5, so someone else will have to take care of that aspect.

Now, a bit of caution. As I cannot fully support borrowing the graphics, as Souha emailed me about the whole deal years ago, I can try to email Souha for permission. I'm pessimistic that I'll get a response though as Touhou Epic is effectively no longer in development, so I guess that is something I may turn a blind eye to.

 

[Huitzil37]

Man, I don't want to make a whole game-changing mod like Touhou Epic that remakes the rules of the game and all that. That's a level of work and emotional commitment that I am absolutely not ready to put in. I just want to make civilizations that work independently or in whatever combination you would like to add them.

That idea for a Forest of Magic civ seems similarly... really, really involved. Their cities could generate a unique strategic resource, or maybe you could hash something together to put that resource on the map in the form of leyline points or what have you and make them the only ones who can see it, but... what do they do with it? What buildings and units do they get with it... and more specifically, how MANY? If they have, like, eight buildings/units, how is that not just way better than every other civ? I dunno, it seems like a lot of work to balance.

(Alice's Doll Hegemony could be a civ of its own! Made entirely of dolls! She would be the only actual person in the civ! Being creepy as hell!)

 

[bouncymischa]

Man, I don't want to make a whole game-changing mod like Touhou Epic that remakes the rules of the game and all that. That's a level of work and emotional commitment that I am absolutely not ready to put in. I just want to make civilizations that work independently or in whatever combination you would like to add them.

I have to agree, for the moment a mod as large-scale as Touhou Jojishi was is probably not terribly feasible. X3 But who knows... maybe someday. Although the point about getting permission before using any art assets from Touhou Jojishi is a valid one.

That idea for a Forest of Magic civ seems similarly... really, really involved. Their cities could generate a unique strategic resource, or maybe you could hash something together to put that resource on the map in the form of leyline points or what have you and make them the only ones who can see it, but... what do they do with it? What buildings and units do they get with it... and more specifically, how MANY? If they have, like, eight buildings/units, how is that not just way better than every other civ? I dunno, it seems like a lot of work to balance.

(Alice's Doll Hegemony could be a civ of its own! Made entirely of dolls! She would be the only actual person in the civ! Being creepy as hell!)

Well, it's not THAT involved. As I said, I did something similar before with a fantasy mod I did.

To be honest, adding a new strategic resource to the map is... hard. I know other people have done it, but I've never gotten it to work properly. On the other hand, having buildings that make a strategic resource for you, like the Recycling Centre does with Aluminum, is... really really easy.

So my thought was to have each Atelier generate one unit of Mana Crystals. What are Mana Crystals good for? Well, currently I'm thinking there could be three new buildings -- Ward Circles, Enchanting Circles, and Summoning Circles -- and each would require 1 Mana Crystal. What's more, they could be made exclusive (the way Solar Plants and Nuclear Plants are), so you could only have 1 in each city. So you build an Atelier, and then you get to decide, "Hmm, what magic circle do I want to build?" The Mana Crystals don't really need to do much other than enable the construction of Magic Circles.

Balance could be an issue, yes... but I think it's possible to come up with abilities that wouldn't be too overpowered. The Ward Circles could add to city strength, like Walls. The Enchanting Circles give out a free promotion, like Cover. The Summoning Circles allow you to construct a unique unit. And that would be about all you'd have to do... but I think it allows one to at least somewaht feel like they're doing magic stuffs.

Alternatively, I suppose I could poke around the Faerun mod, as they had some interesting-sounding fire mages or something. But as I've pretty much got all the code and assets I'd need for the Magic Circles idea, it might be worth a try to see whether it actually plays well or not.