The UU-A-Day Countdown

[CleverFool]

I think one potential weakness the longbow might have is flanking. It's true you can create an uber wall of melee then long bowmen, but how long would it take to create and maintain? One must remember that units are more expensive and not as numerous in CiV, which means creating a wall of units that long may be simply impractical.

That and one could imagine an England player overdoing it a little with all the long bowmen, and not having enough defence against cavalry. They should be able to (in theory), skirt around the line of melee units and deliver a quick blow against the archers in the back. We'll see how it works when the game is actually released, and I still see them as strong, but more of a complement to melee units than an entire army in their own right.

 

[Stefanskantine]

I think you're missing the most important one:
The ability to hit cities at a range where the cities can't hit you back!

Yeah you can just hang back with longbows and pummel the city, have some cavalry ready to charge in once it's softened up. This will force the defensive player to come out to try to lift the siege by facing you on terrain of your choosing, not his...

 

[Schuesseled]

I think you're missing the most important one:
The ability to hit cities at a range where the cities can't hit you back!

Umm no, city range has never ben confirmed, latest impression is that cities can target any units within there radius (which is up to 3 hexes, so i suppose yes they could if the city wasn't properly developed.)

I think one potential weakness the longbow might have is flanking. It's true you can create an uber wall of melee then long bowmen, but how long would it take to create and maintain? One must remember that units are more expensive and not as numerous in CiV, which means creating a wall of units that long may be simply impractical.

That and one could imagine an England player overdoing it a little with all the long bowmen, and not having enough defence against cavalry. They should be able to (in theory), skirt around the line of melee units and deliver a quick blow against the archers in the back. We'll see how it works when the game is actually released, and I still see them as strong, but more of a complement to melee units than an entire army in their own right.

Knights move 3 hexes in one turn, which means that they will be in range of the longbows for one turn,. which means they die horibly.

 

[sdlufkin]

Umm no, city range has never ben confirmed, latest impression is that cities can target any units within there radius (which is up to 3 hexes, so i suppose yes they could if the city wasn't properly developed.)

You might want to read this a bit more carefully.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9555334&postcount=67

 

[timski]

Based on Arioch (and noted in the link above), the Longbow is a third the cost of the Crossbow (80 vs 120).

The first regular range 3 unit appears to be Industrial (Artillery) - Longbows will be hard to match, like-for-like, for a long time!

However, as other have pointed out, being able to bring more units to bare on an enemy, or keeping more tactical options open, is perhaps more important than city-attacking-uberness. Remember that without stacks, cities aren't going to be defended primarily by city garrisons. Instead, there will be units outside, perfectly able to counter anything with a +1 range advantage on the city itself.

The other 2 English benefits are both naval. So presumably on a continental-style map, the Longbow largely *is* the English advantage. If it seems rather good, perhaps that's why.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Based on Arioch (and noted in the link above), the Longbow is a third the cost of the Crossbow (80 vs 120).

The first regular range 3 unit appears to be Industrial (Artillery) - Longbows will be hard to match, like-for-like, for a long time!

However, as other have pointed out, being able to bring more units to bare on an enemy, or keeping more tactical options open, is perhaps more important than city-attacking-uberness. Remember that without stacks, cities aren't going to be defended primarily by city garrisons. Instead, there will be units outside, perfectly able to counter anything with a +1 range advantage on the city itself.

The other 2 English benefits are both naval. So presumably on a continental-style map, the Longbow largely *is* the English advantage. If it seems rather good, perhaps that's why.

That data was gathered in what might have been a quick game (2/3 speed) sin it was lising pikes as only 66 hammers (33 for Landsn)

 

[Tibblers]

I think one potential weakness the longbow might have is flanking. It's true you can create an uber wall of melee then long bowmen, but how long would it take to create and maintain? One must remember that units are more expensive and not as numerous in CiV, which means creating a wall of units that long may be simply impractical.

That and one could imagine an England player overdoing it a little with all the long bowmen, and not having enough defence against cavalry. They should be able to (in theory), skirt around the line of melee units and deliver a quick blow against the archers in the back. We'll see how it works when the game is actually released, and I still see them as strong, but more of a complement to melee units than an entire army in their own right.

That's why you don't just spam longbowmen, yeah. Not having played the game (yet!), it seems like the best setup for them is a strong melee front with horsemen on the flanks ready to intercept any unit that wants to outflank your line.

 

[Risen]

Sure looks like an impressive unit.

 

[Ahriman]

Whats really awesome is that *many* of the UUs seem like really good units, which will affect how you play the game. Thats what UUs in the past have failed to do. Much harder to change how you play in a stack system, since there isn't much variation beyond take stack to enemy, use.

 

[sdlufkin]

Whats really awesome is that *many* of the UUs seem like really good units, which will affect how you play the game. Thats what UUs in the past have failed to do. Much harder to change how you play in a stack system, since there isn't much variation beyond take stack to enemy, use.

Excellent point. I was actually trying to figure out what made all these UU's so much more intersting than past UU's and I suspect most of it is 1UPT, now that you mention it.

When's the next UU posted? I think we can all agree the English Longbowman is freaking incredible (on paper), so sadly not much to discuss. Maybe the weaker (looking) UU's are more interesting to discuss?

 

[ShaqFu]

Whats really awesome is that *many* of the UUs seem like really good units, which will affect how you play the game. Thats what UUs in the past have failed to do. Much harder to change how you play in a stack system, since there isn't much variation beyond take stack to enemy, use.

Going way back to the first post, I mentioned that Civ5 has far fewer marginal UUs than Civ4. Even the most boring Civ5 ones, like the Minuteman and Foreign Legion, are still far more interesting than Civ4's best. The Holkan (take that, ancient era first strikes!) just doesn't make me rethink my military strategies quite like Naresuan's Elephant.

17 days left, and while I'd love to do the B-17, we just don't have any information on it. Instead, we'll take a break from a string of game-changing UUs to a more subtle one: The German Landsknecht. Given that they were mercenary soldiers, the Landsknecht were easier to call up than having to train/outfit a new army; thus, in Civ5, the unit costs half as much as a Pikeman with the same stats otherwise. From what we know, in a Normal speed game, they cost 33 hammers instead of the typical 65.

While this unit is unremarkable as a military force (...more Pikemen?), its greater purpose becomes clear when the German ability is taken into account. Furor Teutonicus gives Germany free military units upon beating barbarians, and the Landsknecht saves a lot of hammers via reduced cost. Thus, Bismarck will be able to field a sufficient army with a far less total production than usual. This presents Germany with two options: invest the spare production into wonders/buildings, or use it for more units - in essence, accelerating any one of the game's victory conditions. Given where Civil Service falls on the tech tree, I'm inclined to think that Germany will be a civ that starts slow and booms late: invest in early top-branch techs (Writing, Philosophy, Civil Service), develop early infrastructure/wonders, and use the Landsknecht to catch up on your weak military. By the time invading Knights start showing up, you'll have enough manpower to fend off attacks; if you're suddenly thrust into war, you can also get defenders out twice as fast.

In short, instead of demanding certain operations from the player, this UU enhances a number of strategies to Germany.

 

[Lyoncet]

I posted about how I thought the Landsknecht was undervalued by a lot of people here, and I'll do a brief rundown on why again. Basically, your army composition will probably look like this:

(as many Longswords/Trebuchets as you have iron) + (as many knights as you have horse) + (as many crossbows as you can get good use of) + (every spare hammer you have after that going in to pikes). We don't know how many of these hammers will bleed over into pikes, but since units that require resources are supposed to be quite limited (it would be weird if they weren't), we can assume that the pike contingent will be at least significant if not overwhelming. Germany's ability to literally double this portion of their army could make for an impressive force, especially against someone like Siam who will be spamming out resourceless cavalry nonstop at this point in the game.

The one other crucial factor is maintenance cost. If cost is a factor of hammers required, then you'll literally be able to field double pikemen at no disadvantage (logistics of that number of units notwithstanding). However, if it's set individually per unit, there's a good chance it will be the same for Landsknechts, meaning it could cripple your economy to take full advantage of their bonus.

Still, having strength-10, cavalry-killing units for fewer hammers than a freakin' warrior seems pretty awesome to me even if they're not the sexiest UU out there.

 

[Stefanskantine]

This plus Furor Teutonicus is going to equal tons of cannon fodder units for Germany. My initial thought is, if I were a militant Bismark I'd forget about swords and put all my iron into siege, trusting sheer numbers of these expendable mercs and barbarian converts to hold the lines. Then go bombs away with a siege and arrow focused attack, as the cannon fodder closes in on all sides.

Also has some utility as a cheaper/faster to create defender for more the more defensive and peaceful minded German player,

 

[Tibblers]

Lyoncet touches upon a point I was going to make: the Knight has 4 UU replacements. An cheap, spammable counter to the mounted units will be more valuable than people think, I suspect.

 

[grant2004]

Lyoncet touches upon a point I was going to make: the Knight has 4 UU replacements. An cheap, spammable counter to the mounted units will be more valuable than people think, I suspect.

Dead on, this is a great counter to a huge number of UU's in the same time frame. With how powerful UU's seem to be, countering that many of them should be looked at as a big advantage. (At least in games where you're near those civs)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

There is an important point regarding the maintenance cost.

If Maintenance cost is the same for Pikes+Land, then Lands are closer to cannon fodder... ie you build them so they can die. You use Lands in wars of attrition since they can be replaced.

If the Maint is lower, however, you field mostly Lands+Ranged.

 

[ShaqFu]

5 posts? Sheesh, I expected more for the Landy.

For the 16th day until release, we'll move to something more interesting; namely, the Ottoman Janissary. These elite soldiers were brought up as foreign slaves (to ensure loyalty to the sultan), trained to be highly effective musket troops, and were arguably the finest of their time. Fittingly enough, this unit gets a combat bonus when attacking, and to go even further, fully heals after defeating a non-barbarian unit.

This UU has generated a lot of discussion on this board, and deservedly so - a better-than-average Mustketman that can keep up an attack is well worth paying attention to. The benefits of the attack bonus are obvious: meet your opponents in the field, and on your turn, slaughter his units. We don't know the potency of the Janissary's bonus, but I'd assume it's at least 25%; enough to take down 90% of units at the time. Keep in mind that "on the attack" just means that it's the Janissary moving into the defender's tile, and not an offensive war, so it's more a bonus for smart maneuvering (let the enemy move within 2 hexes, then move in) than invasions. The full heal upon victory also benefits from military diligence: your Janissaries will need to be the ones dealing the last blow in combat, so let your Crossbowmen/Cannon soften them up, move in with any Knights/Sipahi, and then lay into the enemy with extra-strength muskets. In short, neither bonus is a game-changer, but they're certainly nice to have, and a smart general will get excellent mileage out of their combat-bonus free-healing Musketmen.

Do keep in mind that Gunpowder is one of the easier beelines in the game, and that Metallurgy is only one tech away. Pity the Knight/Pike/Crossbow army that suddenly has to deal with 20+ strength general infantry and extra-quick, Knight-smashing Lancers.

 

[Stefanskantine]

I like the sound of the Janissary a lot. With the 1 UPT mechanics, I can easily see a typical invasion getting bogged down as your front line troops take damage and need to stop and heal. That gives the defender too much time to pump out some more cheap defenders and reset another line to reassert ZOC, and take potshots with ranged. The Janissary's heal ability will instead help the Ottomans press the attack, and so create their own advantagous encirclements/ZOC.

Plus the synergy with Sipahi is obvious, and potentially the Ottomans can have a huge medieval fleet at this time using Barbary corsairs. Ottomans will be a "crush the world in the late middle ages" civ. But will it be enough to make up for a lack of any real economic bonus?

 

[Boshi]

What I see doing with the Janissaries is doing everything I can to build up their promotions, which I see as making them especially deadly since they can keep their health up while continuing to gain promotions.

 

[Risen]

Plus the synergy with Sipahi is obvious, and potentially the Ottomans can have a huge medieval fleet at this time using Barbary corsairs. Ottomans will be a "crush the world in the late middle ages" civ. But will it be enough to make up for a lack of any real economic bonus?

I thought their ability only gave them free navies?