The UU-A-Day Countdown

MisterBarca said:
No, the Immortals campaigned quite a lot; and they may not always have been personally led by the Persian kings either (e.g. they were with Mardonius at Plataea according to Herodotus). They were fundamentally different from the Praetorians in this regard.
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Yeah, I was wrong there. Although Herodotus seems to be the biggest source about them. Compared to the Praetorian Guard, even having them fight at Thermopylae and Platea is far, far better.

Anyway, the Mohawk Warrior isn't bad, but it does bug me. It seems the Iroquois are putting far too many of their eggs in one basket. If there are no trees, they're screwed. I realize you can have start biases, but that seems the only way to make them good.
 
Given what we know about the tile yields (which isn't yet complete, I'll grant you), not having forests nearby would be a major problem for any civ. Certainly more pronounced for Iroquois, but you were probably going to be behind as anyone.
 
I realy like the mohawk warrior. The Iroquois nation wasnt one that I wanted to try at first since they looked like just another Aztek-like war nation, but now I realy wanna try them out they seem much more versatile what I though
 
2 hours of gameplay footage later (thanks 2k Greg :goodjob:), we're at 8 days remaining. We'll look at a unit revealed today via Greg's video, the German Panzer. A long-time favorite (who doesn't like high-power Tanks?), the Civ5 version doesn't disappoint: whereas the Landy had a discount, the Panzer has no pretenses about its purpose. This UU gets an unparalleled +10 strength (60) and one extra movement point over standard Tanks.

Of all the UUs I've analyzed so far, this one can be tactically discussed in a single word: Wow. It's like the Companion Cavalry, warped forward 2500 years, and given extra strength for its trouble. For the German player that wanted a warmonger's UU, this is their big payoff. 60 strength is absolutely staggering, giving this unit an edge over anything short of Modern Armor and the GDR. A 24-strength advantage over the resourceless unit of its age (60 vs 36) is something well worth exploiting, and more specialized units will fall to the mighty Panzer. More importantly, the counter - the aptly-named Anti-Tank Gun - gets a mere 4 strength advantage after its bonus is applied. For sake of comparison, even a lowly +10% strength bonus will push the Panzer over its main counter. Just let that sink in - for all intents and purposes, the Panzer is uncounterable. When a UU overpowers the unit designed to stop it, you know you've got something good on your hands. :goodjob: To make things even better, the Panzer gets an extra move point, making it the fastest (or second, depending how you count Gunships) land unit this side of the Sipahi. The extra move will make the Panzer fantastic at cleaning up shelled units, and the extra strength guarantees victories. While flanking maneuvers matter less in the industrial era (no Archer lines to tear through, or siege detachments to wreck), the Panzer can exploit any that arise.

In short, anyone dismayed by the Landy should feel redeemed by this modern power.
 
UU- and UA-wise Germany seems to be a late starter (which fits the view of realism btw). While a combat bonus against barbarians doesn't seem too strong and the Landsknecht doesn't impress as well, the industrial era seems to be the turnaround for a German CIV.

Two abilities that seem to make the Panzer very powerful. + 10 strength AND a movement bonus. Close to be 'overpowered'? Only if you think in terms of previous CIV-versions:

Movement: Speed is power. In CIV III for example the panzer's bonus was +1 Movement, without any strength bonus... and it was a good UU-ability. In Civ V, I think movement is not that important like before, especially in later eras. As we could see in Gregs gameplay video, the modern eras are "spammed" with units. OK, you still can get your newly produced Panzers quickly to the front. However once they arrive the frontline, they should have some difficulties to use their movement-bonus at maximum benefit, just because the front will be spammed with units.

Strength: We don't know much about the exact calculations for combat. +10 strength looks indeed powerful, but maybe just at a first glance? It's speculation, but I think it is an educated guess, that the relation between strength-values of the units is decisive, and not the absolute number. A Panzer vs a Tank is 60 vs 50, which is 20% better than the non-UU. A Hoplite is at a strength of 9 vs a 7-strength-Spearman, which makes a UU-bonus of 29%. So, +10 strength seems to be much, but you have to look at it in comparison to its non-UU counterpart.

However: Overall it looks like a strong and interesting unit, which can be very strong in the hands of a good human player :)
 
I think the Panzer will be awesome. I think its most viable counter is going to actually be "Softening up with flying units." Then you attack with your anti-tanks and your gunships.

From watching ZOC in action - if you rewatch the videos, you can see the gigantic difference in blue outlines when he's moving around Napoleon's troops - I'd say that you can stop true flanking by having a well created line of infantry - a unit may die, but the Zone of Control will halt significant offensive mobility from that point.

I think if Germany's on your border, this becomes a sensible precaution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line
 
chaotoroboto said:
I think the Panzer will be awesome. I think its most viable counter is going to actually be "Softening up with flying units." Then you attack with your anti-tanks and your gunships.

From watching ZOC in action - if you rewatch the videos, you can see the gigantic difference in blue outlines when he's moving around Napoleon's troops - I'd say that you can stop true flanking by having a well created line of infantry - a unit may die, but the Zone of Control will halt significant offensive mobility from that point.

I think if Germany's on your border, this becomes a sensible precaution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line
Click to expand...

Germany will then just use their superior Panzer speed to circumvent any ol' French defensive line. :goodjob:
 
Panzer is extremely powerful.
The +1 move is perhaps even more important, than +10 strength. Flanking is not the only use for movement points: combined with the ability to move after combat, they can also be used to attack many times in a turn from a single hex, to dislodge the enemy from the especially strong fortifications (of course, you'd need quite a number of mobile units to effectively utilize this).
They will be quite usable even after the discovery of modern armor, IMO. More so, than any other not-quite-modern unit.
 
The Panzer redeemed my Faith in Germany as civ. It is powerful and historically correct
as it should be and not overpowered at all. Always remember you actually need to make
it that far to get em ;) Fear Guderians Ghost Division!
 
Blackfang said:
Panzer is extremely powerful.
The +1 move is perhaps even more important, than +10 strength. Flanking is not the only use for movement points: combined with the ability to move after combat, they can also be used to attack many times in a turn from a single hex, to dislodge the enemy from the especially strong fortifications (of course, you'd need quite a number of mobile units to effectively utilize this).
They will be quite usable even after the discovery of modern armor, IMO. More so, than any other not-quite-modern unit.
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Is there any promotion that gives normal units additional movement?
 
+10 strength and +1 movement. bit imbalanced it is. The panzer wasn't that great of a tank. It was good but not outstanding. The only reason why the panzer did all that it did was because everyone else was too slow to adopt the tank as an effective weapon. Poland had Calvary and they had some planes but they didn't even know how to use them. In fact they shot down their own planes! Britain and france had some tanks but they were very specialized. One was fast but had little armor, another had tones of armor but was incredibly slow. The reason behind this lag was because their military leaders decided calvary was the future! Hitler was leaning the same way but once he saw it in action he fell in love with the panzer. So the panzer is not that impressive when you put it in to context. When the T-34 came out it swept the field with them. The Germans tried making a tank like the T-34 and failed epicly.
 
Everything in Civ is a symbolization. Actually the german tanks were not very good. It was the superior tactics of the commanders that won the Blitzkrieg against France.

Also (again): Let's not be to historically accurate here. Civ is about alternate history.
 
B-29 Bomber said:
+10 strength and +1 movement. bit imbalanced it is. The panzer wasn't that great of a tank. It was good but not outstanding. The only reason why the panzer did all that it did was because everyone else was too slow to adopt the tank as an effective weapon. Poland had Calvary and they had some planes but they didn't even know how to use them. In fact they shot down their own planes! Britain and france had some tanks but they were very specialized. One was fast but had little armor, another had tones of armor but was incredibly slow. The reason behind this lag was because their military leaders decided calvary was the future! Hitler was leaning the same way but once he saw it in action he fell in love with the panzer. So the panzer is not that impressive when you put it in to context. When the T-34 came out it swept the field with them. The Germans tried making a tank like the T-34 and failed epicly.
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Don't agree with this i'm afraid. I believe that 'Panzer' is just a German word for 'tank', rather then a specific vehicle type.

Sure, the first WWII panzers were pretty basic with hardly any firepower, but then they were against cavalry!! The later WWII panzers were absolutely outstanding (Tiger, King Tiger, Panther etc..) but were limited to ever decreasing numbers due to resource limitations (ala ciV!).

Sure the T34 was a mighty fine fighting vehicle, but iirc only acheived battlefield superiority due to its overwhelming numbers.

Perhaps it could of been called a Tiger Tank, rather then Panzer if one wants to be picky..!!
 
The T-34 was in every way worse than the German tanks, with only exception: it could be built faster. The loss of Germany was surely in no way decided by better technique of the Russians.

"I believe that 'Panzer' is just a German word for 'tank', rather then a specific vehicle type."

You are right.
 
B-29 Bomber said:
+10 strength and +1 movement. bit imbalanced it is. The panzer wasn't that great of a tank. It was good but not outstanding. The only reason why the panzer did all that it did was because everyone else was too slow to adopt the tank as an effective weapon. Poland had Calvary and they had some planes but they didn't even know how to use them. In fact they shot down their own planes! Britain and france had some tanks but they were very specialized. One was fast but had little armor, another had tones of armor but was incredibly slow. The reason behind this lag was because their military leaders decided calvary was the future! Hitler was leaning the same way but once he saw it in action he fell in love with the panzer. So the panzer is not that impressive when you put it in to context. When the T-34 came out it swept the field with them. The Germans tried making a tank like the T-34 and failed epicly.
Click to expand...

The main strength of the german tanks were their crews, officers and generals: in the beginning of the WWII they were the best (the tanks themselves - Pz II and Pz III - were even somewhat worse than the british and french). During the course of war, of course, other countries' officers adapted, but even the soviet T-34s and IS-2/3s (which were somewhat superior - largely, because soviets had better materials for armor) only overpowered them by numbers. That is worthy enough for a UU. (Although, IMO, if they decided to give Panzers a bonus to speed, they'd be better off with a Panther model, than a Tiger.)
Also the german UA is long obsolete by that moment, as well as their first UU, they deserve a powerful early-modern unit IMO.
 
Panzer comes from Panzerkampfwagen which means Armoured Battle Car =)

Also, one of the responses to the T34 was the Panzer V Panther (the other the Panzer VI Tiger), arguably the best tank of the entire second World War.
 
B-29 Bomber said:
+10 strength and +1 movement. bit imbalanced it is. The panzer wasn't that great of a tank. It was good but not outstanding. The only reason why the panzer did all that it did was because everyone else was too slow to adopt the tank as an effective weapon. Poland had Calvary and they had some planes but they didn't even know how to use them. In fact they shot down their own planes! Britain and france had some tanks but they were very specialized. One was fast but had little armor, another had tones of armor but was incredibly slow. The reason behind this lag was because their military leaders decided calvary was the future! Hitler was leaning the same way but once he saw it in action he fell in love with the panzer. So the panzer is not that impressive when you put it in to context. When the T-34 came out it swept the field with them. The Germans tried making a tank like the T-34 and failed epicly.
Click to expand...

Absolutely not true especially the last sentence for reasons given below ^^
The PzKfW 5 Panther (the counter to the soviet T34) was the best tank of WW2.
If you wanna reason at least get your facts right ;)
 
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