The UU-A-Day Countdown

chaotoroboto said:
I think the Panzer will be awesome. I think its most viable counter is going to actually be "Softening up with flying units." Then you attack with your anti-tanks and your gunships.

From watching ZOC in action - if you rewatch the videos, you can see the gigantic difference in blue outlines when he's moving around Napoleon's troops - I'd say that you can stop true flanking by having a well created line of infantry - a unit may die, but the Zone of Control will halt significant offensive mobility from that point.

I think if Germany's on your border, this becomes a sensible precaution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line
Click to expand...

Germany will then just use their superior Panzer speed to circumvent any ol' French defensive line. :goodjob:
 
Panzer is extremely powerful.
The +1 move is perhaps even more important, than +10 strength. Flanking is not the only use for movement points: combined with the ability to move after combat, they can also be used to attack many times in a turn from a single hex, to dislodge the enemy from the especially strong fortifications (of course, you'd need quite a number of mobile units to effectively utilize this).
They will be quite usable even after the discovery of modern armor, IMO. More so, than any other not-quite-modern unit.
 
The Panzer redeemed my Faith in Germany as civ. It is powerful and historically correct
as it should be and not overpowered at all. Always remember you actually need to make
it that far to get em ;) Fear Guderians Ghost Division!
 
Blackfang said:
Panzer is extremely powerful.
The +1 move is perhaps even more important, than +10 strength. Flanking is not the only use for movement points: combined with the ability to move after combat, they can also be used to attack many times in a turn from a single hex, to dislodge the enemy from the especially strong fortifications (of course, you'd need quite a number of mobile units to effectively utilize this).
They will be quite usable even after the discovery of modern armor, IMO. More so, than any other not-quite-modern unit.
Click to expand...

Is there any promotion that gives normal units additional movement?
 
+10 strength and +1 movement. bit imbalanced it is. The panzer wasn't that great of a tank. It was good but not outstanding. The only reason why the panzer did all that it did was because everyone else was too slow to adopt the tank as an effective weapon. Poland had Calvary and they had some planes but they didn't even know how to use them. In fact they shot down their own planes! Britain and france had some tanks but they were very specialized. One was fast but had little armor, another had tones of armor but was incredibly slow. The reason behind this lag was because their military leaders decided calvary was the future! Hitler was leaning the same way but once he saw it in action he fell in love with the panzer. So the panzer is not that impressive when you put it in to context. When the T-34 came out it swept the field with them. The Germans tried making a tank like the T-34 and failed epicly.
 
Everything in Civ is a symbolization. Actually the german tanks were not very good. It was the superior tactics of the commanders that won the Blitzkrieg against France.

Also (again): Let's not be to historically accurate here. Civ is about alternate history.
 
B-29 Bomber said:
+10 strength and +1 movement. bit imbalanced it is. The panzer wasn't that great of a tank. It was good but not outstanding. The only reason why the panzer did all that it did was because everyone else was too slow to adopt the tank as an effective weapon. Poland had Calvary and they had some planes but they didn't even know how to use them. In fact they shot down their own planes! Britain and france had some tanks but they were very specialized. One was fast but had little armor, another had tones of armor but was incredibly slow. The reason behind this lag was because their military leaders decided calvary was the future! Hitler was leaning the same way but once he saw it in action he fell in love with the panzer. So the panzer is not that impressive when you put it in to context. When the T-34 came out it swept the field with them. The Germans tried making a tank like the T-34 and failed epicly.
Click to expand...

Don't agree with this i'm afraid. I believe that 'Panzer' is just a German word for 'tank', rather then a specific vehicle type.

Sure, the first WWII panzers were pretty basic with hardly any firepower, but then they were against cavalry!! The later WWII panzers were absolutely outstanding (Tiger, King Tiger, Panther etc..) but were limited to ever decreasing numbers due to resource limitations (ala ciV!).

Sure the T34 was a mighty fine fighting vehicle, but iirc only acheived battlefield superiority due to its overwhelming numbers.

Perhaps it could of been called a Tiger Tank, rather then Panzer if one wants to be picky..!!
 
The T-34 was in every way worse than the German tanks, with only exception: it could be built faster. The loss of Germany was surely in no way decided by better technique of the Russians.

"I believe that 'Panzer' is just a German word for 'tank', rather then a specific vehicle type."

You are right.
 
B-29 Bomber said:
+10 strength and +1 movement. bit imbalanced it is. The panzer wasn't that great of a tank. It was good but not outstanding. The only reason why the panzer did all that it did was because everyone else was too slow to adopt the tank as an effective weapon. Poland had Calvary and they had some planes but they didn't even know how to use them. In fact they shot down their own planes! Britain and france had some tanks but they were very specialized. One was fast but had little armor, another had tones of armor but was incredibly slow. The reason behind this lag was because their military leaders decided calvary was the future! Hitler was leaning the same way but once he saw it in action he fell in love with the panzer. So the panzer is not that impressive when you put it in to context. When the T-34 came out it swept the field with them. The Germans tried making a tank like the T-34 and failed epicly.
Click to expand...

The main strength of the german tanks were their crews, officers and generals: in the beginning of the WWII they were the best (the tanks themselves - Pz II and Pz III - were even somewhat worse than the british and french). During the course of war, of course, other countries' officers adapted, but even the soviet T-34s and IS-2/3s (which were somewhat superior - largely, because soviets had better materials for armor) only overpowered them by numbers. That is worthy enough for a UU. (Although, IMO, if they decided to give Panzers a bonus to speed, they'd be better off with a Panther model, than a Tiger.)
Also the german UA is long obsolete by that moment, as well as their first UU, they deserve a powerful early-modern unit IMO.
 
Panzer comes from Panzerkampfwagen which means Armoured Battle Car =)

Also, one of the responses to the T34 was the Panzer V Panther (the other the Panzer VI Tiger), arguably the best tank of the entire second World War.
 
B-29 Bomber said:
+10 strength and +1 movement. bit imbalanced it is. The panzer wasn't that great of a tank. It was good but not outstanding. The only reason why the panzer did all that it did was because everyone else was too slow to adopt the tank as an effective weapon. Poland had Calvary and they had some planes but they didn't even know how to use them. In fact they shot down their own planes! Britain and france had some tanks but they were very specialized. One was fast but had little armor, another had tones of armor but was incredibly slow. The reason behind this lag was because their military leaders decided calvary was the future! Hitler was leaning the same way but once he saw it in action he fell in love with the panzer. So the panzer is not that impressive when you put it in to context. When the T-34 came out it swept the field with them. The Germans tried making a tank like the T-34 and failed epicly.
Click to expand...

Absolutely not true especially the last sentence for reasons given below ^^
The PzKfW 5 Panther (the counter to the soviet T34) was the best tank of WW2.
If you wanna reason at least get your facts right ;)
 
We don't need to get bogged down in Tank minutiae ;) I think the Civilopedia implies that the Panzer in the game is the Panther, fyi.

Anyway, I think the unit is good. It does what it should for a unit this late, it gives unquestioned superiority over its peers. It's downside is that, by that point, the game is often won or lost. By comparison to the Companion cavalry, which gives similar bonuses (less, but to both speed and strength) much, much earlier. It's use will always be limited by that. That being said, if you do need a late game push (either to win or to prevent another civ from getting a space race), it does the job well. I wonder if it has any "Blitz" ability like previous Civ games (attacking 5 times in a row would be quite cool).
 
I think its more useful to think about this as "+25% strength" rather than +10 strength.

There are other UUs which have similar strength advantages over their normal counterparts.
Musketeers and musketmen, for example?
 
Yep, although the Panzer gets the +25%, plus speed. It's two eras above Muskets, though, so this makes sense.
 
My point is: 10 extra strength on a strength 40 unit is the same as 4 extra strength on a strength 16 unit, or 2 extra strength on a strength 8 unit.

Its not about era, its that combat calculations in Civ have always been based on ratios, not absolute difference.
 
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