The Vault Dev. Canteen (General Discussion)
- Thread starter Lib.Spi't
- Start date
Haha, I thought you were doing the Mr house patch? 
Mine is the Pre-Alpha 6 patch.
New Specialists, reworked civics and the first go at the 'evolving' civic traits.
Right now I am just lacking the umph to design the content for the first 25 civic traits. (Not to mention adding in that content to the code).
Mine is the Pre-Alpha 6 patch.
New Specialists, reworked civics and the first go at the 'evolving' civic traits.
Right now I am just lacking the umph to design the content for the first 25 civic traits. (Not to mention adding in that content to the code).
Aren't regular civics evolving? Or is it SPECIAL? You gonna make a pressure valve civic that does nothing? That would be nice.
The eventual goal is that the effects of civics will expand the longer that you continuosly use them, as well as having effects that a generated from the 'mix' of civics that you use.
So eventually a Democracy with a Professional Military would generate a different society compared to a Democracy with a Militia.
Or the other countless combinations for positive and negative outcomes. Some combinations leading to positive and negative synergies.
So eventually a Democracy with a Professional Military would generate a different society compared to a Democracy with a Militia.
Or the other countless combinations for positive and negative outcomes. Some combinations leading to positive and negative synergies.
So what is the content of this 'stability' mechanic?
I am not even sure if I have ever played an RFC mod. Not at this moment even sure what RFC stands for?!? (Is that the Rhyes and Fall ones?)
I think I played one of these, it might even be one that came bundled in BtS... I can't remember what the 'stability' feature was.. It has been years since played it (If it is even the one I am thinking about?!?)
I presume it is this you are talking about?
"New stability system inspired by srpt's RFC Classical World mod: more transparent factors, gradual effects in the form of different crises, and improved performance"
What more can you tell me about it?
The goal is obviously to make something fun, as well as create a sense of realism and also a deeper sense of the Fallout world.
If you try and make your society adopt two opposing ideologies, like being led by the wealthy with a military control on the economy, this will create something of a fracture or 'malfunction' in society as a whole as two groups goals begin to clash and conflict.
A bit like what occured with the NCR after Tandy's death, the NCR being driven into one conflict after another while the rich monopolised the very best elements of the military to protect their private holdings from minor raider threats, leaving the frontlines of conflict woefully under manned and poorly equipped.
The Negatives and Positives of these various situations/scenarios can even be different depending on what faction you play, so the same government could have a drastically different out come for the BoS compared to the Enclave.
It just opens up a whole world of potential for interesting twist, turns and replayability.
I am not even sure if I have ever played an RFC mod. Not at this moment even sure what RFC stands for?!? (Is that the Rhyes and Fall ones?)
I think I played one of these, it might even be one that came bundled in BtS... I can't remember what the 'stability' feature was.. It has been years since played it (If it is even the one I am thinking about?!?)
I presume it is this you are talking about?
"New stability system inspired by srpt's RFC Classical World mod: more transparent factors, gradual effects in the form of different crises, and improved performance"
What more can you tell me about it?
The goal is obviously to make something fun, as well as create a sense of realism and also a deeper sense of the Fallout world.
If you try and make your society adopt two opposing ideologies, like being led by the wealthy with a military control on the economy, this will create something of a fracture or 'malfunction' in society as a whole as two groups goals begin to clash and conflict.
A bit like what occured with the NCR after Tandy's death, the NCR being driven into one conflict after another while the rich monopolised the very best elements of the military to protect their private holdings from minor raider threats, leaving the frontlines of conflict woefully under manned and poorly equipped.
The Negatives and Positives of these various situations/scenarios can even be different depending on what faction you play, so the same government could have a drastically different out come for the BoS compared to the Enclave.
It just opens up a whole world of potential for interesting twist, turns and replayability.
I just did some reading and investigating of the stability system, it sounds pretty cool. A lot like Europa Universalis sort of mechanics.
This might be similar but also different.
The current system I have in my head works by the acquisition and loss of traits, which you gain and lose based on your actions and choices.
The traits could be positive, negative, or both.
The civic specific traits will be primarily effected by the civics you choose over an ever increasing amount of time.
So the longer you run slavery, the more ingrained slavery becomes in your faction, and the greater the impact it can have.
These Civic Traits and Synergy Civic Traits(formed from specific combinations of civic choice) can also be further evolved by the players actions over the course of the game.
So an example might be (Not 100% sure on details, I think it can be done but I would need to work my way through the code again to make sure this is possible.. anyway)
You have the slavery civic, for 50 turns and you gain Slavery 1 Trait. Also every time you kill a unit, you gain points towards the 'Slave Maker' Trait, but you can only gain the Slave Maker trait if you already have the Slavery 1 Trait. Slave Maker then further improves your slavery type bonuses.
It could give a bonus to slave specialists, or a new building or new unit or all manner of other things.
So over time your actions and choices shape the identity of your faction, and the same set of actions and choices could have very different outcomes depending on which faction you play.
This might be similar but also different.
The current system I have in my head works by the acquisition and loss of traits, which you gain and lose based on your actions and choices.
The traits could be positive, negative, or both.
The civic specific traits will be primarily effected by the civics you choose over an ever increasing amount of time.
So the longer you run slavery, the more ingrained slavery becomes in your faction, and the greater the impact it can have.
These Civic Traits and Synergy Civic Traits(formed from specific combinations of civic choice) can also be further evolved by the players actions over the course of the game.
So an example might be (Not 100% sure on details, I think it can be done but I would need to work my way through the code again to make sure this is possible.. anyway)
You have the slavery civic, for 50 turns and you gain Slavery 1 Trait. Also every time you kill a unit, you gain points towards the 'Slave Maker' Trait, but you can only gain the Slave Maker trait if you already have the Slavery 1 Trait. Slave Maker then further improves your slavery type bonuses.
It could give a bonus to slave specialists, or a new building or new unit or all manner of other things.
So over time your actions and choices shape the identity of your faction, and the same set of actions and choices could have very different outcomes depending on which faction you play.
I never played Europa Universalis, but I have played victoria 2. The stability system is kind of like rebellions in that. Except not happening as often but being far more painful.
RFC's stability is effected by your civic combinations, territory gains/losses, buildings, and numerous other little things. If your stability gets too low than you face cities rebelling and becoming 'independent' losing all of your units there and all culture you produced there.
If stability gets even lower than you get into a civil war in which case you lose ALL of your cities except your capital and maybe 2 or 3 other random cities. Its a brutal mechanic which can take you from being the greatest power in the world to like 5th or 6th place.
RFC's stability is effected by your civic combinations, territory gains/losses, buildings, and numerous other little things. If your stability gets too low than you face cities rebelling and becoming 'independent' losing all of your units there and all culture you produced there.
If stability gets even lower than you get into a civil war in which case you lose ALL of your cities except your capital and maybe 2 or 3 other random cities. Its a brutal mechanic which can take you from being the greatest power in the world to like 5th or 6th place.
Yeah at the moment we don't have the code capacity to do things as drastic as that (losing sets of cities, etc.)
I don't know how they do it, whether .dll or python events or what..
So anyway, we could have events like Merchant Specialists suddenly producing unhappiness for whatever reason, which could lead to a city productivity collapsing, unless you move in some kind of happiness counter.
I don't know how city rebellions are actually handled in game normally?
Is it something like X long term unhappiness makes a chance for a city to rebel?
It is not something I have thought about, or experienced for a long time.. So I just don't know what happens with city rebellion in a normal unmodded way!?!
But having these sorts of rebellions forming new factions could be fun as we could see thinks like the brotherhood splitting into east/west/outcasts, etc.
That's all steps down the road though, still got to make the first steps of this whole thing.. I think I have the mechanisms working, I just need to design and implement the first lot of content.
I don't know how they do it, whether .dll or python events or what..
So anyway, we could have events like Merchant Specialists suddenly producing unhappiness for whatever reason, which could lead to a city productivity collapsing, unless you move in some kind of happiness counter.
I don't know how city rebellions are actually handled in game normally?
Is it something like X long term unhappiness makes a chance for a city to rebel?
It is not something I have thought about, or experienced for a long time.. So I just don't know what happens with city rebellion in a normal unmodded way!?!
But having these sorts of rebellions forming new factions could be fun as we could see thinks like the brotherhood splitting into east/west/outcasts, etc.
That's all steps down the road though, still got to make the first steps of this whole thing.. I think I have the mechanisms working, I just need to design and implement the first lot of content.
I'm not suggesting anything even remotely close to that. It is the single most annoying part of that mod. It was a necessary evil in because it helped to have civs who weren't supposed to live further to eventually fall apart but it was extremely annoying and unrealistic in many cases. It really wouldn't be necessary in a mod like FTTW since RFC spanned ~5000 years while I assume FTTW is only gonna span a few centuries, if that.
As far as I know vanilla does not have rebellions. It has city revolts that are caused by culture from other civs. If left unchecked the city will revolt to that civ.
I think it'd be more prudent to do this in a scripted way that takes certain things into account. So you don't get something stupid like the enclave or NCR fracturing. They are, at least the former is, extremely nationalistic and loyal to their faction and their leader.
To clarify What I said at the beginning about not having the code to do it, I was saying that we wouldn't be able to do that, and thus need not worry about the system being like that.
You might be right about revolts and that it only kicks in with culture, I am probably thinking of an older civ, where it was unhappiness that caused rebellions. I just was unsure if long term unhappiness eventually does something other than just reduce the number of active citizens you have...
Well you say that the enclave or NCR doesn't fracture, but both have examples of fracturing, or at the very least coming close to fracturing.
For example in the NCR you have the Tandi ideology which was a kind of anti-capitalist, social responsibility.
You have the Water Merchants of the Hub who seek influence and control and reinstate (or perhaps just try to) the Water standard that was first introduced with bottle caps, after the NCR Gold standard collapsed post BoS War.
You also have the Agricultural/Cattle Barons who seek greater influence in the NCR, who were kept in check by anti monopoly laws under Tandi, but who were slowly eroding those laws after her death, to the point that they had such influence as to be able to 'mis-use' the elite forces of the NCR to protect their interests.
Then in the Enclave you have the Richard Richardson 'faction' you then have the John Henry Eden computer faction and you have the other guy who I think takes over after Eden is eliminated, who I think each approach the 'Ideals' of the Enclave differently.
Now in the story each of these come to 'power' on a clear path because the player eliminates the previous leader, but if that had not happened we could have potentially seen an Enclave civil war as each major leader believes that their way is the right way for the Enclave Ideals to be upheld.
Just like Civ deals in the 'What-ifs?' of history, we are dealing with the potential what ifs of Fallout History.
But this idea of actual fracturing is not something we can do yet I think. What we may be able to do is have something like these fracture factions coming to power within each civ, depending on the choices made by that civ.
These different faction Traits could then disable/exclude certain traits that could see certain units/buildings/effects and such being lost.
So an NCR that follows slavery, will become an NCR that never founds the Rangers. (As they began life as an anti-slavery paramilitary)
You might be right about revolts and that it only kicks in with culture, I am probably thinking of an older civ, where it was unhappiness that caused rebellions. I just was unsure if long term unhappiness eventually does something other than just reduce the number of active citizens you have...
Well you say that the enclave or NCR doesn't fracture, but both have examples of fracturing, or at the very least coming close to fracturing.
For example in the NCR you have the Tandi ideology which was a kind of anti-capitalist, social responsibility.
You have the Water Merchants of the Hub who seek influence and control and reinstate (or perhaps just try to) the Water standard that was first introduced with bottle caps, after the NCR Gold standard collapsed post BoS War.
You also have the Agricultural/Cattle Barons who seek greater influence in the NCR, who were kept in check by anti monopoly laws under Tandi, but who were slowly eroding those laws after her death, to the point that they had such influence as to be able to 'mis-use' the elite forces of the NCR to protect their interests.
Then in the Enclave you have the Richard Richardson 'faction' you then have the John Henry Eden computer faction and you have the other guy who I think takes over after Eden is eliminated, who I think each approach the 'Ideals' of the Enclave differently.
Now in the story each of these come to 'power' on a clear path because the player eliminates the previous leader, but if that had not happened we could have potentially seen an Enclave civil war as each major leader believes that their way is the right way for the Enclave Ideals to be upheld.
Just like Civ deals in the 'What-ifs?' of history, we are dealing with the potential what ifs of Fallout History.
But this idea of actual fracturing is not something we can do yet I think. What we may be able to do is have something like these fracture factions coming to power within each civ, depending on the choices made by that civ.
These different faction Traits could then disable/exclude certain traits that could see certain units/buildings/effects and such being lost.
So an NCR that follows slavery, will become an NCR that never founds the Rangers. (As they began life as an anti-slavery paramilitary)
John Henry Eden was never at odds with Richardson. To put it somewhat crudely, he was a continuity program that took on its own identity. The bulk of the enclave, including nearly all of its leadership, got blown up. The remainder were like: "Great.." Until they somehow got a communication from this government of continuity, its funny because the Enclave in and of itself is the government of continuity, on the east coast. So the bulk of them lead by a science officer started the trek out that a way. Those who were either farther flung or more rational either held their position or tried to integrate into NCR. They died.
The other guy I think you are referring to Colonel Augustus Autumn. He is the highest ranked person in the Enclave as of 2277, save for a retcon. He disagreed with some of Eden's methods and plans. He never tried to usurp Eden though. He disobeyed orders but never attempted anything like a coup.
The NCR seems to be more along the lines of different factions within a nation rather than something that would make it fracture. The NCR's main issue is over extension. They simply are incapable of holding all which they posses.
Like I said though, we don't know what could happen in the Enclave, because all of those personalities (in a general sense) died before any potential conflict could develop to a breaking point.
An Army officer that disobeys an order is a pretty clear sign of 'worse' to come.
The situation was never allowed to get to the point of critical mass, because one side of the argument was removed before it could potentially come to blows.
What would have happened if Richardson was still alive and Eden's personality developed in such a way that it came to the logical conclusion that Richardson was the wrong person for the job of continued continuity for the Enclave?
Same with the NCR, a fracturing never happened (Legion... cough, cough!) but what if the Hub decided to push a little harder with the water standard and that they should be Capital entity of the NCR or the Agri Moguls decide that they have the most wealth and it is them that keep the NCR strong and dominant so what do they really need elected officials for?
Civil wars always start as two groups disagreeing until one moment they stop disagreeing and decide to settle it once and for all.
An Army officer that disobeys an order is a pretty clear sign of 'worse' to come.
The situation was never allowed to get to the point of critical mass, because one side of the argument was removed before it could potentially come to blows.
What would have happened if Richardson was still alive and Eden's personality developed in such a way that it came to the logical conclusion that Richardson was the wrong person for the job of continued continuity for the Enclave?
Same with the NCR, a fracturing never happened (Legion... cough, cough!) but what if the Hub decided to push a little harder with the water standard and that they should be Capital entity of the NCR or the Agri Moguls decide that they have the most wealth and it is them that keep the NCR strong and dominant so what do they really need elected officials for?
Civil wars always start as two groups disagreeing until one moment they stop disagreeing and decide to settle it once and for all.
If Richardson were still alive there would be no power vacuum for Eden to fill. We'd never have computer FDR making the best radio station in Washington DC. That makes me sad. Thank god that didn't happen.
Blowing up Governments and leaving power vacuums is not the American way?
maybe not the way, but it's definately in the list for a way..
If Eden studied his histories, he may have liked some of those ideas..
I am feeling pretty unmotivated with the whole process of modding at the minute..
I think I may just upload the last bits of work I have done:
Reduced Civic Effects
Added Changing Civic Traits (Though no real content)
Added New Specialists
Added Specialist Availability to buildings
and call it day.. At least for a while.
I am not really having any fun with it at the moment, the team has more or less disappeared and I am just bored of working on ideas on my own.
maybe not the way, but it's definately in the list for a way..
If Eden studied his histories, he may have liked some of those ideas..
I am feeling pretty unmotivated with the whole process of modding at the minute..
I think I may just upload the last bits of work I have done:
Reduced Civic Effects
Added Changing Civic Traits (Though no real content)
Added New Specialists
Added Specialist Availability to buildings
and call it day.. At least for a while.
I am not really having any fun with it at the moment, the team has more or less disappeared and I am just bored of working on ideas on my own.
need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
Hey, don't worry; do whatever you find to be fun, what makes you happy. 
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