The Wonder Thread.

[SupremacyKing2]

In BNW the Eiffel Tower is a Tourism Wonder, before, that it was Happiness. It wouldn't surprise me if Appeal is kind of for both. It affects city size and Tourism value.

Yes that would make sense. In any case, The Eiffel Tower looks to be a really good wonder. I rarely built it in civ5 but I think I will be building it quite a bit in civ6.

 

[4N4C0ND4]

Yes that would make sense. In any case, The Eiffel Tower looks to be a really good wonder. I rarely built it in civ5 but I think I will be building it quite a bit in civ6.

It's quite good in CiV tbh.
Easy to build even on Deity since you usually slingshot radio.
The tourist part is not that great, especially if cultural victory is not in mind, but the extra (global?) happiness is never a bad thing.
And it's not that hammer expensive.

 

[masda_gib]

Not being able to pass over wonders would be going full [censored word apparently ]... Just imagine it:

'Umm, Sarge... There's like, this, big stone circle in our path, sir? Request instructions, over.'

'Goddammit son, I guess we'll get home for Christmas after all! Unfortunately the Geneva Convention is very clear on this: big hunks of stone outrank humans in all situations and are not to be disturbed by noisy tanks or rowdy troops, so let's pack up 'n go home to our corrupt police sta-- Err, paradise of ultimate freedom and shiny happiness! Praise the Great Leader!'

'Err... Sir, yes sir! Praise the Mighty One and the wise drafters of the international rules of warfare!'

And since Wonders can maybe be destroyed by nukes:
"The stone circle is a sacred place and shall not be disturbed by our troops and tanks! Retreat a few miles and nuke it to ashes. Then we shall proceed on our way..."

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I'm not sure I like the idea of destroying Wonders with Nukes.

ANd not being able to pilalge them. Pillaged tiles can be REPAIRED. And you'd have to decide when you want to receive your passive bonus back by repairing it.

 

[Scaramanga]

Nuking wonders definitely gives it an apocalyptic feel to it, like, well, there's no going back from this now. It adds to the Rock-Paper-Scissors since before wonders were untouchable now nuke beats wonder.

 

[janboruta]

So:
- wonders are not pillage-able
- wonders are nukable
- are wonders razeable with their parent cities? (the popup mentions razing districts alongside with their cities)

On one hand razing them would make sense and satisfy the player's primal instincts if he's going all warmongery and bloodthirsty. On the other, it'd be haunting but cool to see abandoned wonders that might be reclaimed by someone at a later date.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Look at the Mahabodhi Temple:
-Must be built on wood
-Adjacent to a holy site district
-Pre-built Temple in the holy site
-You must have found a religion

Now, let's imagine you are 100% focused on faith and wan't to build 3 out of 4 religious wonders in your holy city, and imagine the prequisites for each one look something like those...

In Civ5 it was nearly impossible to not have a forest, they were distributed evenly. And that's actually the only requirement. If you play religiously, you need to found religion, or it's pointless. If you play religiously, have forest and plan Mahabodhi, it's good idea to have the district near forest - for both bonus and the Wonder. The temple is the least of all as if you play religiously and already completed the district, building temple in it is logical.

So, if forests are distributed evenly, the only real requirement for Mahabodhi is more or less focusing on religion

 

[Krajzen]

I hope there will be more non-Western wonders. I have always been annoyed by all sorts of "architecturals wonders of the world" lists in all media to often be "world = western culture + greeks + taj mahal and chinese wall" Especially early civ installments sucked in this regard: "wonders of the world... yeah, 90% of them are Western or Classical (Western ancestors basically)"

So far we get:
*Mandatory "classical wonders of the world", the entire concept is based on the original list of 7:
Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Great Library, Hanging Gardens (I'm wondering if remaining 3 are in civ6 again)
*Sphinx [Egyptian] - okay
*Eiffel Tower [France] - okay
*Big Ben [England] - okay
*Hagia Sophia [Byzantium] - okay
*Mont St. Michael [France] - okay
*Colosseum [Rome] - okay
*Venetian Arsenal [Venice] - okay, I initially reacted 'WTH' but after reading on it I agree, it's impressive
*Terracotta Army, Forbidden Palace, Great Wall [China] - okay
*Mahabodhi Temple [India] - okay

*Oracle [Greek], to be honest I have no idea why Greek oracle is so revered by civ series, countless cultures had their oracles (and they were all drugged or crazy )
*Stonehenge, maybe I say total heresy now but I think it shouldn't be wonder of the world, it is far less impressive architectural feat than all other on the list, even for its ancient age (has age similar to incomparably more impressive pyramids + there are tons of more impressive monolythic structures over the world)


I'd really love some more Indian wonders beyond mandatory Taj Mahal, cool that Mahabodhi is in but seriously, the subcontinent is full of 3000 years old architectural majestic wonders and in civ series it has always been only this goddamn Taj Mahal (in general eurocentric lists usually equate Indian architecture to this one structure )
I'd also enjoy architectural wonders of Islam (there are tons of them), South East Asia (Angkor Wat is basically mandatory but I hope for more, Borobudur in BNW was cool) and Subsaharan Africa.

Regarding Precolombian wonders, I'm 99% sure Chichen Itza and Machu Picchu are in civ6.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The ones that jump out at me:

Colosseum: Global happiness buffs are usually more or less mandatory, though this one isn't too crazy.

Eiffel Tower: I have a really hard time seeing how this is going to be balanced. Depending on how Appeal works, this could be super-powerful or fairly irrelevant. If it is crazy OP, the small number of possible Appeal values available could come back to bite the devs. This could easily be a building where, say, 1.5 is the right value but it's simply not available without reworking the system.

Great Library: May be crazy busted depending on the number of techs in question, their cost and the magnitude of the boost. Or it may be underwhelming due to those factors.

Oracle: You're probably going to want that, though it does potentially add some risk of popping "wrong" Great People.

Pyramids: Likely to be insane on low difficulties where you can already have a large empire by the the time you have to pop it in order to keep it out of AI hands. Probably won't be built by the player on higher difficulty levels.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Oracle: You're probably going to want that, though it does potentially add some risk of popping "wrong" Great People.
.

You don't have to worry about popping "wrong" Great people anymore

1. When you get a Great Person only the cost of that Great Person type goes up (for everyone)... so no Merchants stopping you from getting Scientists

2. If a Great General is 100 points, and I have 100 points, I don't get that Great general if I don't want, I can save those points and wait to get the Next Great General (although I will have to pay the higher price)

 

[Martin Alvito]

You don't have to worry about popping "wrong" Great people anymore

1. When you get a Great Person only the cost of that Great Person type goes up (for everyone)... so no Merchants stopping you from getting Scientists

2. If a Great General is 100 points, and I have 100 points, I don't get that Great general if I don't want, I can save those points and wait to get the Next Great General (although I will have to pay the higher price)

Interesting, I was aware of the latter but not the former.

 

[IronfighterXXX]

You don't have to worry about popping "wrong" Great people anymore

Yes, but I really worry about this 'global pool of Great People that all civilizations draw from'.

It's a little bit early to say for sure, but if it will be only luck dependent, it can lead to very serious issues to compare competitive games like HOF, GOTM or even deity challenges from Civ5 forum.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yes, but I really worry about this 'global pool of Great People that all civilizations draw from'.

It's a little bit early to say for sure, but if it will be only luck dependent, it can lead to very serious issues to compare competitive games like HOF, GOTM or even deity challenges from Civ5 forum.

It basically means Great People are like wonders except

1. You get to see how far everyone has progressed (although I think this becomes available with Civ6 Wonders if you know them, but I think you see the Great Person Progress of civs even if you don't know them.... ie unknown Civ player 3 has 45 great Scientist Points, unknown civ Player 5 has 56, and Japan has 34, I have 86, probably don't have to worry about getting that GS ... Or I have 16, probably not worth trying to get this next one)

2. If another civ gets them first, you don't lose your investment

3. Which ones are Available is random in each category

It makes them a bit more "Great" in that only one civ can get any particular Great Person.

 

[Redaxe]

I think the extra conditions to Wonders is a good thing. Everyone likes to wonder hoard every once in a while but too much and it starts to break immersion. If you want to be able to build every religious wonder then Civ 5 Prince is the place to do it.

I do wonder how much of a bonus China gets to Wonders. I hope they can't spam workers in all their cities and bulb them in their capital to rush through wonders really quickly because that seems quite cheesy. But then again compared to Egypt which just gets a flat production bonus to Wonders China actually has to invest turns to build workers and then consume them. I suspect it will be about 1 worker charge per turn? So you have to divert energy away from other things in your cities if you want to rush a wonder with multiple workers. So IF this is the case, then it's not really bonus produciton, you're basically robbing Peter to pay Paul

 

[moysturfurmer]

Iirc it was a percentage of the total production cost. Something like 20% or thereabouts.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Yes, but I really worry about this 'global pool of Great People that all civilizations draw from'.

It's a little bit early to say for sure, but if it will be only luck dependent, it can lead to very serious issues to compare competitive games like HOF, GOTM or even deity challenges from Civ5 forum.

I worry about it too. I see two potential problems:

1) How fast you can go is conditioned by how fast the AI moves into the optimal GPP, and that may vary widely for two different playthroughs with the same map/opponents.

2) Differentiating the Great People means that whether or not you can get the optimal sequence depends on either how fast the AI moves into the relevant GPP (which is semi-random) if there's a fixed GPP sequence, or the ordering itself if the ordering is by random draw.

None of that seems desirable, though if highly random stuff in CiV like city-state quests and diplomacy improves, we may be better off overall.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Iirc it was a percentage of the total production cost. Something like 20% or thereabouts.

It was About that much for a specific wonder. (it probably isn't 40 for a 200 cost wonder and 300 for a 1500 cost wonder)

Its probably a specific amount of production per charge (subject to balance)

There might be some Gain X production ->builder->More than x production for all the charges on the builder, since I seem to recall it being limited to ancient/classical wonders. (so you wouldn't have enough time to fully utilize it.)

it is probably better if there is NOT a gain (X hammers->Builder gives an equal or lesser amount into the Wonder) and it could be used later.

 

[moysturfurmer]

It was About that much for a specific wonder. (it probably isn't 40 for a 200 cost wonder and 300 for a 1500 cost wonder)

Its probably a specific amount of production per charge (subject to balance)

There might be some Gain X production ->builder->More than x production for all the charges on the builder, since I seem to recall it being limited to ancient/classical wonders. (so you wouldn't have enough time to fully utilize it.)

it is probably better if there is NOT a gain (X hammers->Builder gives an equal or lesser amount into the Wonder) and it could be used later.

Right yeah, that makes sense, regarding point one, and yeah I forgot about point two. Good looking out.

 

[chazzycat]

Hagia Sophia: +4 faith and +2 Great Prophet Points. Missionaries and Apostles can spread religion one extra time. Must be built on flat land adjacent to a holy site. Must have found a religion. [710 production]

I had assumed apostle was just the new name for the missionary unit, but now it seems like there are both. I wonder what the difference is.

 

[Ikael]

Having to make serious choices between Wonders and Districts is a good thing, I feel. Actually having to compete for real-estate and map generation factors is far more of a nuanced and responsive situation than "stack Production and spam them when you can".

Hear, hear. It is, indeed, a very interesting mechanic, for it would force the player to make cruel (read: interesting) choices. The only problem that I see with this system is that now cultural players such as myself would be forced to play agressively in order to procurate real state for our beloved wonders. I don't like warmongering, but you know, I really, really, really need that desert tile for my pyramids

I can see why people are hesitant, though. It seems like they could be too restrictive. But some of them definitely have effects to match (that Venetian Arsenal - assuming you have the income to support whatever maintenance costs units have in Civ VI? Dayum).

Indeed. That being said, I would have liked it much better if terrain would offer production bonuses towards certain wonders, rather than being a hard condition of YES / NO. That way you could still have more options (more possible wonders to build) but they would be far more risky (more people competing for them, and wide empires beating you to certain wonders due to having more ideal situation for them).