The Wonder Thread.

[Redaxe]

I had assumed apostle was just the new name for the missionary unit, but now it seems like there are both. I wonder what the difference is.

What I suspect is -
Great Prophets are now earned from Great Prophet Points.. So faith is no longer necessary to get Great Prophets.

Here is where the speculation begins - I'm assuming that Great Prophets no longer convert cities - they are probably limited to founding/enhancing religions and maybe holy sites? They say that Great People will draw from a pool but I highly doubt the devs will create specific Great Prophets based on real people - I think it is a subject that is too sensitive.

Apostles & Missionaries presumably cost faith to buy. So now it should be easier to spread a religion as you don't have to choose between spending faith on enhancing a religion or on missionaries.
Apostles are possibly more expensive and may convert citizens of an existing religion - much like the Great Prophet does (think of the 12 apostles of Jesus converting the Jews and Pagan religions to christianity)
Missionaries might be cheaper and used to convert citizens with no religious belief?

 

[Redaxe]

The only problem that I see with this system is that now cultural players such as myself would be forced to play agressively in order to procurate real state for our beloved wonders. I don't like warmongering, but you know, I really, really, really need that desert tile for my pyramids

It may not be as bad as you think. In civ 5 only about 10 wonders could contribute tourism or boost Great Person Points to help a culture victory. That is out of about 46 wonders in total.

 

[Plus Ultra]

So, if forests are distributed evenly, the only real requirement for Mahabodhi is more or less focusing on religion

We could go in circles discussing each wonder or district to end up concluding each and every one is, of course, buildable in most games. It's hard to argue with that.
What I'm finding hard to wrap my head around is the complexity of combining the prequisites or bonuses from different wonders and districts, and how this new complexity changes how we approach the game:

-Less freedom to design our empires/cities as we see fit?
-More planning required before settling a city?
-Impossible combinations due to our starting position?

Again, even if the answer to all those questions is "yes", maybe that's a good thing. It does seem like a big change to me, bigger than I expected.

Another example (you know I like examples): Imagine you are settling a new city.

In Civ V you would look for rivers, mountains, chokepoints, luxuries, strategic resources and food/production capabilities. We all know how long it takes us to decide where to settle.

In Civ VI, the same applies, but you have to decide as well which type of city you want first. Let's say you are going for the science victory and want to use Religion as a tool. You need, for an optimal city placement:

-Jungle or Mountain for your science district (you are going to build one on every city, since that is your ultimate goal)
-Forests for your holy district.
-A free tile (without a resource, ideally not near a river to use those for farms) which borders forests and has another free tile as well to build the Mahabodhi Temple.
-A flood plains or march tile without a resource for Mont St. Michel.

Again, I honestly have no I idea how this will impact our game. It might very well be the best thing that ever happened to Civ, or much simpler than I'm thinking. Please ignore this post if all seems a bunch of nonsense to you, it probably is.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

We could go in circles discussing each wonder or district to end up concluding each and every one is, of course, buildable in most games. It's hard to argue with that.
What I'm finding hard to wrap my head around is the complexity of combining the prequisites or bonuses from different wonders and districts, and how this new complexity changes how we approach the game:

-Less freedom to design our empires/cities as we see fit?
-More planning required before settling a city?
-Impossible combinations due to our starting position?

Again, even if the answer to all those questions is "yes", maybe that's a good thing. It does seem like a big change to me, bigger than I expected.

Another example (you know I like examples): Imagine you are settling a new city.

In Civ V you would look for rivers, mountains, chokepoints, luxuries, strategic resources and food/production capabilities. We all know how long it takes us to decide where to settle.

In Civ VI, the same applies, but you have to decide as well which type of city you wan't first. Let's say you are going for the science victory and want to use Religion as a tool. You need, for an optimal city placement:

-Jungle or Mountain for your science district (you are going to build one on every city, since that is your ultimate goal)
-Forests for your holy district.
-A free tile (without a resource, ideally not near a river to use those for farms) which borders forests and has another free tile as well to build the Mahabodhi Temple.
-A flood plains or march tile without a resource for Mont St. Michel.

Again, I honestly have no I idea how this will impact our game. It might very well be the best thing that ever happened to Civ, or much simpler than I'm thinking. Please ignore this post if all seems a bunch of nonsense to you, it probably is.

I've been cogitating on this as well. It's like Ed Beach has been saying, you really shouldn't have a preconceived plan for your victory. Let the terrain tell you what victory to pursue and how to do it.

Sometimes you will get the perfect terrain to pursue a science victory, other time a cultural victory. Sometimes you will have the prerequisites for the Pyramids, sometimes not. You just have to play each game by ear and no two games alike.

 

[Plus Ultra]

I've been cogitating on this as well. It's like Ed Beach has been saying, you really shouldn't have a preconceived plan for your victory. Let the terrain tell you what victory to pursue and how to do it.

Sometimes you will get the perfect terrain to pursue a science victory, other time a cultural victory. Sometimes you will have the prerequisites for the Pyramids, sometimes not. You just have to play each game by ear and no two games alike.

I get it, I'm just wondering if the've gone further than I am comfortable with/expected/wanted.

I choose the Civ and victory condition I wan't to achieve and then the terrain makes every game different to avoid one go-to strategy = awesome.

I choose the Civ and the terrain chooses for me the victory condition I should focus on achieving = confusing (for me) right now.

I'll stop rambling now, we need to get our hands on the game to reach any conclusion anyway, and I have lot's of trust in Ed's ability to balance out all this stuff.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Mont St. Michel: The most interesting thing is is how there are now "great works of religion" (relics) rather than works of art.

I just assumed that relics were what archeologists dug up, rather than being something specific to religion.

 

[Chandler]

@Plus Ultra Well, I was kind of begging about more wonder-building restrictions a few weeks ago, so I'm glad with what we're seeing. I think that, regarding Civ VI wonders, we should start to consider we won't be able to build almost everyone of them as in Civ V, and focus only in the ones we really, really want/need/can build, and ignore remainders. And I love that. But those are just personal preferences.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

What I suspect is -
Great Prophets are now earned from Great Prophet Points.. So faith is no longer necessary to get Great Prophets.

Here is where the speculation begins - I'm assuming that Great Prophets no longer convert cities - they are probably limited to founding/enhancing religions and maybe holy sites? They say that Great People will draw from a pool but I highly doubt the devs will create specific Great Prophets based on real people - I think it is a subject that is too sensitive.

Apostles & Missionaries presumably cost faith to buy. So now it should be easier to spread a religion as you don't have to choose between spending faith on enhancing a religion or on missionaries.
Apostles are possibly more expensive and may convert citizens of an existing religion - much like the Great Prophet does (think of the 12 apostles of Jesus converting the Jews and Pagan religions to christianity)
Missionaries might be cheaper and used to convert citizens with no religious belief?

Specific Great Prophets are probably Ok as long as a few big ones are avoided
Muhammad
Jesus
L Ron Hubbard

Maybe a few other "founders" should be avoided (Buddha, Moses?)... but they might be OK (I have less familiarity with those communities).
If you go with the secondaries

Simon Peter, Paul of Tarsus
Abu Bakr, Ali ibn Abi Talib

you are Probably fine


..... also Prophets may be able to create Relics (besides founding/enhancing religion)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I suspect they will continue the trend of not naming the Great Prophets. The unique Prophet abilities will probably be too bland to ascribe to one particular prophet or another.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

@Plus Ultra: You could always just reroll the map in order to get the terrain that you need for the victory condition that you prefer. I wouldn't view it as 'cheating'; it's a single-player game so you technically can't cheat in the first place, and secondly if you feel like you're being railroaded to a certain path by this new mechanic, then imo it's justified to take some measures against that. I've never fully understood the people who say 'Play the had that you're dealt!', and deal with godawful tundra starts and the like. I suppose for them the fun comes from the challenge, while for me it lies in domination. Mind you, there's limits to everything; I'm not suggesting that you reroll for a 6 salt Petra start each game (or the equivalent in Civ VI), but it's fair to give yourself a leg up if it improves the experience.

 

[Thormodr]

Let's face it. In Civilization 5, 95% of the time you built cities to capture new luxuries to appease the crappy global happiness mechanic. Thankfully, CBP lessened that to an extent with local happiness reinstituted.

I look forward to more meaningful choices in CIV VI in regards to city placement as cities will no longer be mere luxury depots that they were in Civilization 5.

 

[stealth_nsk]

We could go in circles discussing each wonder or district to end up concluding each and every one is, of course, buildable in most games. It's hard to argue with that.
What I'm finding hard to wrap my head around is the complexity of combining the prequisites or bonuses from different wonders and districts, and how this new complexity changes how we approach the game

I was actually pointing out a little bit different thing. The Wonders are not only buildable, but those Wonders which are tied to some game direction, also have natural prerequisites for this direction. If you push yourself toward religion, religious wonder prerequisites don't require significant efforts.

And it looks quite good to me to have some form of limited wonder race. In previous Civ games on highest difficulty levels early wonders were nearly unreachable. Now we'll have our chances.

 

[Plus Ultra]

I was actually pointing out a little bit different thing. The Wonders are not only buildable, but those Wonders which are tied to some game direction, also have natural prerequisites for this direction. If you push yourself toward religion, religious wonder prerequisites don't require significant efforts.

And it looks quite good to me to have some form of limited wonder race. In previous Civ games on highest difficulty levels early wonders were nearly unreachable. Now we'll have our chances.

How is having a not-cleared marsh tile available in your city a natural prequisite for religious victory? Some (build a temple) make perfect sense, but not all.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point and hope the system works exactly as you think it will. Let's wait and see.

 

[AriochIV]

You won't be able to build all your wonders in your capital anyway, so you'll just need to place new cities with these restrictions in mind. It's really not a problem.

 

[darkace77450]

So far none of the revealed wonders mention Great Merchants, and none of them boost diplomacy. As someone who enjoys Diplomatic Victories as much as I do any other victory condition, hopefully this doesn't portend bad things to come for Diplomacy.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

So far none of the revealed wonders mention Great Merchants, and none of them boost diplomacy. As someone who enjoys Diplomatic Victories as much as I do any other victory condition, hopefully this doesn't portend bad things to come for Diplomacy.

The Colossus generates Great Merchant points.

 

[moysturfurmer]

Any chance you have a screenshot of it? Can't look myself on account of work.

 

[Jewman]

I just assumed that relics were what archeologists dug up, rather than being something specific to religion.

Relics could be like medieval tourism. Would be pretty cool that a religious route still can get you tourism.

 

[Thormodr]

Relics could be like medieval tourism. Would be pretty cool that a religious route still can get you tourism.

Pilgrimages would be pretty cool.

 

[joncnunn]

A general observation I have is that it appears most or all wonders (or at least the early ones) have fairly specific requirements.
This could make it possible even on the highest difficulty level to actually build a couple by default (e.g. you are the only player who could actually build it and so the AI couldn't use its production handicap to shut you out of all of them.)