Bibor
Doomsday Machine
Continents, standard size, King.
The yields are fine (screenshots)
- Thread starter Bibor
- Start date
Continents, standard size, King.
dannyfool:
The reason it's hard to get high population in Civ V is because of happiness issues, not tile yields! 10 to 15 pop is the level you ought be working with at around 1000 AD at King difficulty level. At the turn posted above, I have a size 21 city and two size 15+ cities at the King diff level.
Boosting population growth is similar in principle to how it was in Civ IV: make more food. The difference is that now, you have to pull it in from different sources.
Assuming you can land yourself enough happiness, you farm every riverside tile, and ping CS any way you can (GS or GL). Then, Patronage up for the Maritime City State bonuses. Then put a Granary in every city you want to grow.
This is less necessary in the Capital, since it gets premiums from Maritime deals. The CSs are necessary. I've found it very difficult to bulk up cities without Maritime deals. The Siamese have it better here because they can make do with one or two Maritime deals because of the +50% yield bonus. Most other Civs, I need three to five deals going on to really get some bulk up.
With these bonuses, you can get up to size 15-20+ cities at about turn 240, which is half the turn length of a standard game. I suppose you could get city size up even faster than that, but I've often found happiness to be a major limiter for size. I need to get that far because I need Astronomy to find (and sometimes liberate) all the Maritime CSs I need.
The reason it's hard to get high population in Civ V is because of happiness issues, not tile yields! 10 to 15 pop is the level you ought be working with at around 1000 AD at King difficulty level. At the turn posted above, I have a size 21 city and two size 15+ cities at the King diff level.
Boosting population growth is similar in principle to how it was in Civ IV: make more food. The difference is that now, you have to pull it in from different sources.
Assuming you can land yourself enough happiness, you farm every riverside tile, and ping CS any way you can (GS or GL). Then, Patronage up for the Maritime City State bonuses. Then put a Granary in every city you want to grow.
This is less necessary in the Capital, since it gets premiums from Maritime deals. The CSs are necessary. I've found it very difficult to bulk up cities without Maritime deals. The Siamese have it better here because they can make do with one or two Maritime deals because of the +50% yield bonus. Most other Civs, I need three to five deals going on to really get some bulk up.
With these bonuses, you can get up to size 15-20+ cities at about turn 240, which is half the turn length of a standard game. I suppose you could get city size up even faster than that, but I've often found happiness to be a major limiter for size. I need to get that far because I need Astronomy to find (and sometimes liberate) all the Maritime CSs I need.
MaXimillionZero
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
- Messages
- 205
Look guys, tile yields are fine. This perfectly normal city proves it:
(Standard/King/Hiawatha)
Spoiler :
How can you 'prove' tile yields are fine with a single screenshot? Or are you being sarcastic, what with that screenshot being from a capital city and during a golden age?
EDIT...
Oh, and the longhouse presumably.
EDIT...
Oh, and the longhouse presumably.
MaXimillionZero
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
- Messages
- 205
That post may have contained slight traces of sarcasm.
Only ever so slightly though.
I would like to remark on something else though. There are two complaints that are often heard:
- Tile Yields suck! It takes ages to build even a basic unit!
- Upgrading is way overpowered! I can just keep upgrading my starter units instead of building new ones!
I sense a catharsis here, somewhere.
I would like to remark on something else though. There are two complaints that are often heard:
- Tile Yields suck! It takes ages to build even a basic unit!
- Upgrading is way overpowered! I can just keep upgrading my starter units instead of building new ones!
I sense a catharsis here, somewhere.
well, it gives a strong emphasis on early warfare, some would say too strong. There's three reasons:
1)early units can be build a lot more easily than later units
2)early warfare really cripples the AI
3)units with lots of promotions, earned from long periods of warfare, are a lot stronger than brand new units
Because of all three, any sort of peaceful strategy just feels weak in comparison.
It's uncommon to see too many tiles above 3 food in Civ5, and I believe that each citizen still takes up 2 food. So if you're working a mine before Civil Service, you need to work 2 grassland farms just to break even.
Fish seem to be one of the best resources you can get. Early on they are 4 food and 3 gold which is hard to beat, and if you're lucky and beeline it, you can get it to a 4 and 4 with the Colossus. In fact due to +2 production from sea resources from Navigation, the best potential start with be flooded with seafood.
On a side note, I have NEVER managed to beat an AI to the Colossus. It's priority #1, and is probably a big reason why they have such weak military's at the start. I imagine every single AI beelining the same early wonders and not building a single unit.
Fish seem to be one of the best resources you can get. Early on they are 4 food and 3 gold which is hard to beat, and if you're lucky and beeline it, you can get it to a 4 and 4 with the Colossus. In fact due to +2 production from sea resources from Navigation, the best potential start with be flooded with seafood.
On a side note, I have NEVER managed to beat an AI to the Colossus. It's priority #1, and is probably a big reason why they have such weak military's at the start. I imagine every single AI beelining the same early wonders and not building a single unit.
I believe a lot of information is missing :
A) The speed. yes this is totally relevant when you're using arguments like "it only takes X turns"
B) The improvements in the city . A city connected with railroads and with a windmill and factory will have a decent (mind decent , not good) production but you had to invest time to get there (mainly for the factory) .
And C) lets not forget that one of the main problems is the Tech Research time vs production time . Sure its nice to build things in X turns . But if the techs are researched at X/2-3 turns in relative turns it still the same crappy yield .
A) The speed. yes this is totally relevant when you're using arguments like "it only takes X turns"
B) The improvements in the city . A city connected with railroads and with a windmill and factory will have a decent (mind decent , not good) production but you had to invest time to get there (mainly for the factory) .
And C) lets not forget that one of the main problems is the Tech Research time vs production time . Sure its nice to build things in X turns . But if the techs are researched at X/2-3 turns in relative turns it still the same crappy yield .
I agree that seafood is massively op! Just like you said, get navigation, maybe the Colossus, seaport and other seafood production boosters...
tile yields are quite annoying in Civ5 especially since land food resources (wheat, sheep, cow etc...) are quite worthless really. I also hate it how strategic resources don't grant extra hammers, even that little extra production from e.g. iron mine, would indeed make sense from a real life stand point, and would alleviate this.
One instance where I remember having a pretty good land food was a jungle banana tile (don't you get extra science from jungles with university or something?) but that's quite rare on most maps.
It's not true that earlier units can be built easier than later units. Earlier military units have greater opportunity costs if they are not used because you are investing in military instead of infrastructure. Moreover, military units can be lost if you are not as adept as others in tactical warfare.
Early warfare can cripple the AI if you are good at it and if you like doing it. At the level I'm playing, which is King, I don't find it particularly alluring to go to war early because it makes development upwards harder.
Units with lots of promotions are still only 10 hp units. Managed well, they can be devastating, but lots of units, produced quickly and with less promotions, can also be quite good. In my current skill level, I prefer more units built later rather than less units being elite built earlier and maintained with gold.
Generally speaking, it's not unusual to have era-appropriate units building at 10 turns or less. Sometimes, you can get it down to half that if you have a good production site.
In my last game, just before the SS win, I had a military production city that could churn out Helicopter Gunships at one every 4 turns, outside of a Golden Age.
Granted, that city was sited particularly for the production tiles and with a mind to military production, but in that capacity, it performed quite well throughout the game. When I needed Archers, it produced Archers at something like 1/9 and Warriors at 1/3. When I needed Camel Archers later on, 1/9 again. When I needed Artillery, 1/9 again, with Infantry being built considerably faster.
This was in a game where I was playing Harun al-Rashid, whose Camel Archers proved surprisingly devastating.
I don't doubt that I could better that performance with a Forest-based Iroquoi city using Longhouses.
Early warfare can cripple the AI if you are good at it and if you like doing it. At the level I'm playing, which is King, I don't find it particularly alluring to go to war early because it makes development upwards harder.
Units with lots of promotions are still only 10 hp units. Managed well, they can be devastating, but lots of units, produced quickly and with less promotions, can also be quite good. In my current skill level, I prefer more units built later rather than less units being elite built earlier and maintained with gold.
Generally speaking, it's not unusual to have era-appropriate units building at 10 turns or less. Sometimes, you can get it down to half that if you have a good production site.
In my last game, just before the SS win, I had a military production city that could churn out Helicopter Gunships at one every 4 turns, outside of a Golden Age.
Granted, that city was sited particularly for the production tiles and with a mind to military production, but in that capacity, it performed quite well throughout the game. When I needed Archers, it produced Archers at something like 1/9 and Warriors at 1/3. When I needed Camel Archers later on, 1/9 again. When I needed Artillery, 1/9 again, with Infantry being built considerably faster.
This was in a game where I was playing Harun al-Rashid, whose Camel Archers proved surprisingly devastating.
I don't doubt that I could better that performance with a Forest-based Iroquoi city using Longhouses.
See, I don't get this sort of reasoning. At all. If you need to work two grasslands tiles to be able to work the production tile, then work the bloody grasslands tiles.
Semi-related rant: everyone seems to be saying things like "lol, trade posts OP, you only need trade posts, money = win, maritime CS give you all the food" or "production sucks/is inefficient, just build trade posts and buy everything" etc...
Then other people start complaining that growth is way too slow, it's impossible to get big cities, there's never enough food and other such things.
I might not have some fantastic I-played-Civ-0-on-Overgod-difficulty-veteran credits, but it seems to me that a lot of players are ignoring the bloody obvious:
Work your tiles according to what your city needs.
I for one applaud the fact that the people who try these so called straightforward catch-all city development plans end up whining about the things such plans inevitably don't account for.
Because it means that yields and city development are, in fact, quite decently balanced. And yes, that means you need to think. Always, with every new city. Not very hard, mind you, but you can't just blindly follow a certain scheme that supposedly works for any kind of city in any kind of place.
EDIT:
Another one! This + people constantly repeating that coastal tiles rather suck. God, either I'm missing quite some ridiculous amounts of sarcasm on these forums, or some people here are pretty thick.
I think you're doing it wrong. My bet is that people noticed things grew/were produced too slowly and THEREFOR went for trade post berserk and purchase everything .
Celevin:
Food from tiles is scarcer in Civ V because part of the food has been moved over to the City States. If you don't farm while also getting CS food, you won't be getting enough to grow as quickly as you should.
What I do these days is to beeline CS (using GS or GL) for the food bonus if I'm on rivers. Granted, this practice made me rue my Iroquoi game since I didn't start off on a river or on coast, but it taught me that I needed alternative ways to look for food. In my Iroquoi game, I had no contact with any Maritimes, and no rivers. Taught me the value of Granaries, it did.
Once you have CS, you can farm every riverside tile, then try to get the support of two or three CSs. Assuming you get two CSs, and farm 3 riverside tiles, you get a 10 food surplus outside the capital, which should be enough to easily get you up to 10 or 11 pop quickly, or work production tiles without sacrificing too much growth.
Granaries actually help a lot, too. Assuming you don't have a happiness issue, each Granary costing you 1g feeds one Citizen, which should be giving you more than 1g value. The only reason you shouldn't be taking this deal is because you don't have enough time to build everything everywhere.
Food from tiles is scarcer in Civ V because part of the food has been moved over to the City States. If you don't farm while also getting CS food, you won't be getting enough to grow as quickly as you should.
What I do these days is to beeline CS (using GS or GL) for the food bonus if I'm on rivers. Granted, this practice made me rue my Iroquoi game since I didn't start off on a river or on coast, but it taught me that I needed alternative ways to look for food. In my Iroquoi game, I had no contact with any Maritimes, and no rivers. Taught me the value of Granaries, it did.
Once you have CS, you can farm every riverside tile, then try to get the support of two or three CSs. Assuming you get two CSs, and farm 3 riverside tiles, you get a 10 food surplus outside the capital, which should be enough to easily get you up to 10 or 11 pop quickly, or work production tiles without sacrificing too much growth.
Granaries actually help a lot, too. Assuming you don't have a happiness issue, each Granary costing you 1g feeds one Citizen, which should be giving you more than 1g value. The only reason you shouldn't be taking this deal is because you don't have enough time to build everything everywhere.
Generals3:
My bet is that people made some back-of-the-tissue calculations without taking everything into account and made a snap conclusion.
There are many, many things that gold can get you in Civ V, but the one thing it can't get you is population, and just as in Civ IV, population is where your power comes from. The more people you have, the more powerful your Civ is.
Since gold can't buy you population, it can substitute for production, but not for food. Yes, you can buy food from City States, but so can any player that also farms. There are only so many Maritimes in the game, and that's the limit of your food surplus. Beyond that, you have to farm.
I can see a strategy where you TP to get enough money to bankroll early Maritime support, but before the Medieval period, where you have few cities and low bonus food, I don't see it being very cost-effective. By the time you hit Medieval, you should have CS to boost farming, extra happiness, and more cities. At that time, it can be very beneficial to get multiple Maritime support, but not at the cost of farms!
Farms grow more people, and once you have those people, you can put them on new Trading Posts which you will then use to bankroll the next round of donations. Cutting the farms just cuts growth.
My bet is that people made some back-of-the-tissue calculations without taking everything into account and made a snap conclusion.
There are many, many things that gold can get you in Civ V, but the one thing it can't get you is population, and just as in Civ IV, population is where your power comes from. The more people you have, the more powerful your Civ is.
Since gold can't buy you population, it can substitute for production, but not for food. Yes, you can buy food from City States, but so can any player that also farms. There are only so many Maritimes in the game, and that's the limit of your food surplus. Beyond that, you have to farm.
I can see a strategy where you TP to get enough money to bankroll early Maritime support, but before the Medieval period, where you have few cities and low bonus food, I don't see it being very cost-effective. By the time you hit Medieval, you should have CS to boost farming, extra happiness, and more cities. At that time, it can be very beneficial to get multiple Maritime support, but not at the cost of farms!
Farms grow more people, and once you have those people, you can put them on new Trading Posts which you will then use to bankroll the next round of donations. Cutting the farms just cuts growth.
Oh jesus.
Just... Stick to one post and one argument. You're bringing a number together even from different threads and it's not working. I think we all know how to cover food. And the trade post argument is used for puppets.
Yeah, I use the maritimes and granaries. It's actually a necessity in a lot of games. Food is no longer used to grow cities, that's happiness, food is now used to cover your population so you can work production / gold tiles. For example, unless you purposely avoid growth, how much of the time do you actually have spare happiness and don't feel like you're constantly needing more in any empire over 5 cities?Roxlimn said:
I'm not having a problem with food at all, in fact it's quite the contrary. I was merely pointing out how fast the food gets sucked up with grassland tiles, and it shows how reliant we are on city states now.
Oh but most people spam both farms and TP's . Farms on rivers and TP's everywhere else. Thats their tactic. And buying food is easy. Maritime CS like you mentioned and granaries as well. 4-5 Maritime CS's can help a lot when it comes to growth.
Drago Askani
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2007
- Messages
- 293
Thing is that people complain about production of units and stuff but the simple fact is if you are going for any win other then dom then you don't need more then one city set up to make units. Follow that with the -50% cost honor upgrade. I almost always get this even when not going dom because it makes those troops you invested in viable for longer stretchs especially your siege. I think one of the few games I didn't get this was when I went for Bollywood and honestly I think perhaps I shoulda taken it instead of taking the City state one. Since I actually went to war several times during Bollywood. Though thanks to highly defendable locations, combined with good tech output left me able to fend off any aggressors easily with my few siege I kept behind my lines.
No, because I'm saying that that is the problem. You can't just have all these threads focusing on just one aspect of the game, and in your arguments then completely ignore everything else that ties into that aspect.
You are, naturally, allowed to disagree with me, in fact I welcome it. It will unfortunately have to be somewhat more constructive than "you obviously just don't get it, so shut up."
EDIT: I just realised you are the poster that I quoted in that first post there. Just to clarify: I did not imply that all you say is contradictory, I just took your quote as an example of a particular kind of reasoning which seems to pop up every so often on this forum, and which in my opinion is flawed.
Similar threads
