The yields are fine (screenshots)

Celevin:

I have to question that conclusion, because it seems to me that you haven't really even tried.

For instance, you are at your happiness cap without making farms because you have too many cities. Each extra city costs 1 more happiness outside population, and therefore, it doesn't benefit you to work farms.

If you made fewer cities, you will have much greater happiness leeway, and in that situation, you can build farms and maintain Maritime bonuses and build up your cities to ridiculous sizes very early on. You chose one way, but did not try the other, and now you want to say that the way you chose is the only way to play.

That is not a logical conclusion.

It also seems to me that you prioritize Maritimes over Military States without having tried both ways. A Military State with a unique luxury will boost your happiness and Civ size more than a Maritime with a non-unique luxury, despite the food bonus. If you went Maritime, you would be limited by the happiness and you would not have the gold because you cities would be smaller.

Going Militaristic gets you a tech-appropriate military unit within what, ten turns? It's random-ish, but it's the fastest way I've been able to build up an Artillery block after a speedy tech-up. The gold costs from going Maritime would have been prohibitive, and I say that from having done it both ways.
I was receiving +1 happiness for each new city. I had no happiness problems from # of cities. Secondly, I have tried militaristic city states multiple times. At one point in that game, I actually had myself allied / friends with every single city state on the map.

You aren't following what I'm saying: The amount of food Maritimes give allow your cities to work enough production / gold tiles such that it beats out the production gained from militaristic city state units by a mile. There is absolutely no contest, none.
 
As for hospitals, it's simple. If you don't purposely slow your growth you will almost always be happiness capped at the Industrial era. What use is excess food when it gets sucked up so quickly? There's always a better building.

As others have mentioned, that is true only if you have a lot of cities (and no happiness...which the overhead of per-city unhappiness makes even worse).

Based on your posts including the "ignore happiness" thread, your playstyle is to own every hex on the map. The problem is not just that not all hexes are created equal, but that older and more infrastructurified cities multiply those hexes.

Perhaps not all maps allow for sufficient super-city-sites for a fewer city strategy to be stronger, but nevertheless, 1 pop is much better in a good city than a bad city! A bad/new city 1 pop gets you say 2 hammers, in a production city it gets you say factory + railroad + windmill + hydro + forge + ... = ~5 trillion hammers. In addition the production city already has the rax-type buildings so each multiplied hammer is also effectively multiplied.

That leads into the second problem with a new city, that inferior count of 2 hammers has to waste time doing things other than building super units: building the monument/temple/library/granary/forge/stables/barracks/armory/... that your good production city would already have..just to one day be a production city! It will forever play catch-up (you will have researched a new building by then, which the production city will build in 0.3 turns or so).

The only thing I can think that the junk city accomplishes is with the faster initial growth, you would perhaps gain a 3 beaker advantage (lol), that is until the production city grows 1 pop and gains all the science multipliers it built while it was bored from having too many hammers.

I believe you have a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy in your games..always maximizing cap and military, so what need is there to make an especially good city? Just take more, thereby increasing the maritime bonus and keeping you at the cap (or well past it..)! So long as your gold income is enough to cover upgrades, you are set for the rest of the game. That doesn't prove it's the best strategy though, only that the happiness penalties are weak.

Perhaps if instead of puppeting every last piece of junk, raze them and use the cap to add a pop to your 250% science city or your 83% gold city or whatever. I would only keep a puppet as a FOB (forward operating base) overseas, healing, razing, and repeating as more land is conquered, or if there are sufficient turns left and the city site is THAT good.

It's possible you in fact have the best strategy (especially for maps lacking good city sites), but you may not. One can maybe/probably/hopefully??! assume the following: a future patch will weaken maritimes and strengthen happiness penalties. If so, the high quality city strategy will HAVE to be better, so given that, one should grow a good city as opposed to capturing a loser city from Arabia just so that 70 turns later it might build a monument. Given THAT, you would want a hospital.

Lastly, it's even possible that later on in the game, as your puppets have become more advanced, they are still much worse than your very best city, such that it could even be worth razing a semi-big city to allow a VERY good city to grow. Granted this is somewhat extreme, but it's not at all obvious that hospitals are worthless.

EDIT:
In response to what you just said, that's because maritimes are too good. Even if it could eventually be shown that my argument is flawed and that hospitals aren't worth it, it would be because as you said, maritimes give huge amounts of food, not because the hospital itself is in anyway not amazing. (A similar argument applies to the granary).
 
Stepping away from the city-state debate for a second, and also side-stepping the general use of granary/watermill debate, as well..

But some resources have their value increased due to buildings. For example, Gold and silver yields increase with a Mint, bringing their output back in line with "civ4-like" values.. Wine and Incense boost culture...

Would people find buildings like Granaries more interesting if instead of adding a base 2 to growth, they increased the yields of food resources?
 
Celevin:

I am following what you are saying completely. Yes, if you have small cities. Otherwise, not. I'm curious as to how you're acquiring +1 happiness per city. Is this related to the puppet state thing? That's an issue with puppet states, not exactly with tile yields.

I've tried games where I had four very large cities. The Maritime bonuses were okay, but in no way were they providing me with more than what the Militaristic states offered. Have you had a similar game?
 
Celevin:

I am following what you are saying completely. Yes, if you have small cities. Otherwise, not. I'm curious as to how you're acquiring +1 happiness per city. Is this related to the puppet state thing? That's an issue with puppet states, not exactly with tile yields.

I've tried games where I had four very large cities. The Maritime bonuses were okay, but in no way were they providing me with more than what the Militaristic states offered. Have you had a similar game?
I have used the same argument on you multiple times. It's just not getting through. Here it is again, with your empire size:

4 cities, Medieval era, Standard game speed. A Maritime city state would give 4 food to your capitol, 2 food to the other cities. A Militaristic city state will give a NO EXPERIENCE unit every 17 turns. Let's do this for both a Pikeman, and a Knight.

The food from the Maritimes lets you work 1 mine per 2 food. You get 4+3*2=10 food in total, so that's 15 production per turn.

A pikeman is priced at 100 hammers. At 17 turns, you are earning only 6 production.
A knight is priced at 200 hammers. At 17 turns, you are earning only 12 production.

This is not including bonus XP from barracks/military academies, bonus production from windmills/forges and other things, and a lot more.


Even with a *SMALL* empire, Maritime city states are better. The bigger the empire, the bigger this divide. I have used Militaristic city states before. Every single time I have been extremely disappointed. They are not worth going after compared to Maritimes and Cultural.
 
@PieceOfMind: I made a dotmap of that map:

The green represents realistic (2nd ring) borders containing useful tiles.

Spoiler :
d1.png

This is either the most ignorant missing the point post I've ever seen, or the most beautiful piece of snark I've ever seen. It inspires me to try harder and harder at conveying sarcasm with text.
 
Celevin:

Your example makes no sense. The food from the Maritimes does NOT let me work 1 mine. I would be working that mine regardless of the food they gave me! At the Medieval Era, with size 10+ cities, the extra 2 food per Maritime gets you maybe one or two more turns of one extra population per city. That's it.

You are not skimping on the Mines. You are working them normally.

At four cities, assuming you have an improved Forest tile to work, two extra citizen turns gets you 3 production x 4 x 2 or about 24 hammers.
 
This is either the most ignorant missing the point post I've ever seen, or the most beautiful piece of snark I've ever seen. It inspires me to try harder and harder at conveying sarcasm with text.

Spoiler :
Good thing I removed the "here be dragons" I originally put onto uncharted areas. :D For me, good sarcasm contains both truth and good humour. But one has to be careful on these forums because in here people are smart.
 
Interesting debate :)

Some points to consider:

Just because a tile has 'resource x' on it does not mean you have to build 'improvement y' there. This is especially true with resources that become useless after some time such as horses, or those that are simply bonuses like cows. Some will argue that it's even better to just build your city on top of them. Farm that riverside cow if you need food and don't think one extra hammer will help much.

The most powerful production cities will be coastal cities even with no resources present. Actually, with no resources and no improvements it's trivial to have a size one coastal (not even riverside) city with 10 base production. Add a windmill and a factory and you're at 16.5 before considering a single tile outside the city itself. Commerce and Order social policies are all you need, then pack cities in every third tile along the coast. Often the biggest drain on happines is your population, not the number of cities. Production cities don't really need to be large cities, they just need to take advantage of the bonuses you can get them. Obviously if you did only this it would hurt but it's a good example of how productive a city can be- a coastal city with access to 3 fish (or pearls) and 4 or 5 forest tiles can reach around 100 hammers per turn at size 8 in the industrial era, about 30 per turn before then. 3 fish and some trees is easy to find on any map with oceans.
 
Spoiler :
Good thing I removed the "here be dragons" I originally put onto uncharted areas. :D For me, good sarcasm contains both truth and good humour. But one has to be careful on these forums because in here people are smart.

What, the not settling near horses bit? The ridiculous 2nd city? I'm not sure what's going on here.
 
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