They gotta fix cultural victories

Mad Hab

Warlord
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
297
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Hi folks,

I am just disappointed with the 'cultural victory' designed by Firaxis. I started a game with the French, supposing their unique +2 culture bonus would be great for a cultural victory. Standart map, Prince difficulty. Sounds easy, eh?

I started near a lousy desert, and soon founded 5 cities, culture-focusing all of them (also culture-focusing my science, of course). Quickly I completed the 'Liberty' branch of civics, and tought it would not be hard to get the win... Ha!

In the mid-game I was attacked by the two giants of the game: the Siamese and the Iroquois. But I rushed a few units and was able to hold their advance. Better still, after a lenghty war, I was offered cities to make peace with them (even if I would never be able to take them myself). And I took them, of course.

But Firaxis designed 'cultural victory' to be simply impossible with medium to large civilizations - and I wasn't aware of that! With 9 cities (my new total), the cost of all 30 civics became extremely high - even with broadcast towers in all of them (and world wonders in most). No way I could finish them all - and then build the Utopia Project - by 2050!

So, as it stands now, if a player decides to go cultural, he must:

- Decide to do it at game start
- Focus on Cultural techs/buildings/wonders
- Not to expand beyond 4-5 cities (and hope he can fight off the giant civs that will come knocking on his door)

For me, it is lame that you can't adjust your goal to culture in the mid-game (like you could on Civ 4). And, if you decide to go cultural, know that the other victory paths will be closed to you (well, maybe except for Diplomatic - in this case, you must focus on culture and money).

Not giving the opportunity to adapt to the game situation and change plans is a design flaw I wasn't expecting on the game that was supposed to go beyond the great Civ 4...

Best regards,

Mad Hab

PS: Before anyone else says so, I like some of the qualities of Civ 5. But if these foruns are also a tool for us to help the game to become better, then I am using them to try to convince the design team to rethink a design decision I think was rather bad...
 

drachasor

The Undying Flame
Joined
Nov 26, 2005
Messages
869
You can have a cultural victory AND take over enemy civs. It's not that hard and even helps. The problem is you annexed those cities instead of just leaving them as puppet cities. Puppets don't increase the cost of civics.
 

Troneas

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Messages
3
you can also remove the 2050 condition. it'll give you more time.

granted not a solution but a workaround.
 

Mad Hab

Warlord
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
297
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
You can have a cultural victory AND take over enemy civs. It's not that hard and even helps. The problem is you annexed those cities instead of just leaving them as puppet cities. Puppets don't increase the cost of civics.

Yep, I annexed them to make them stop making military buildings and focus on cultural/economic ones. But the problem is that I wasn't warned! I just discovered it was impossible when it was too late!

Maybe I should take note of every change on the culture points/civics requirements relation, but that sounds like work for me, not fun... :(

Oh, and of course I can upload the file. But how do I do that? :confused:

Best regards,

Mad Hab
 

lynxxyarly

Warlord
Joined
Sep 25, 2010
Messages
148
Since I haven't played much and I actually haven't had any fights with other civ's - can one make a puppet state out of other civs?

I know you do it for the city-states, but I haven't actually had a game where I've decided to do a domination victory.

But the problem is that I wasn't warned! I just discovered it was impossible when it was too late!

Actually it does inform you. If you mouse-over the purple culture-counter, the in-text informs you of just that.
 

drachasor

The Undying Flame
Joined
Nov 26, 2005
Messages
869
Yep, I annexed them to make them stop making military buildings and focus on cultural/economic ones. But the problem is that I wasn't warned! I just discovered it was impossible when it was too late!

Maybe I should take note of every change on the culture points/civics requirements relation, but that sounds like work for me, not fun... :(

Oh, and of course I can upload the file. But how do I do that? :confused:

Best regards,

Mad Hab

Unless you too hastily turned off all the default advice settings, you will be told about the differences between annexing and puppeteering when you first take an enemy city (and I think every time after that too).
 

Malkaviel

Prince
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
338
5 is optimal, no puppets. you can have 4 decent and 1 pure culture with half plots landmark, hermitage, etc. seems 100 culture cities are easier than 100 gold cities. also weird japan is the best choice for cultural victory on harder levels because of more resiliant units for defense.
 

Mad Hab

Warlord
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
297
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Actually it does inform you. If you mouse-over the purple culture-counter, the in-text informs you of just that.

Yep, you are right. That information in on the last line of the purple box (I haven't noticed it until you told me so).

Still I think you should be able to become quite large and still have a shot at a cultural win. The way it is, you have to decide how you wanna win early on - maybe before the dawn of the middle ages - and stick with your decision no matter what...

Thanks - and cheers!

Mad Hab
 

James009

Warlord
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
278
Can you raze your new cities and get the number of cities back down?

That being said, I agree with you. Civ V seems to have some very specific victory strategies and really doesn't allow for variety or adaptation.
 

Brawndo

Warlord
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
255
I would also like some kind of better ending with the Utopia Project. All I get is a vague looking painting and "Congrats, you are teh winnar!"
 

PieceOfMind

Drill IV Defender
Retired Moderator
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
9,319
Location
Australia
If you want to upload the startsave,
1. Put it in a zip file
2. When creating a new post or editing one, click "Go Advanced", then "Manage Attachments".
3. From there, you can upload the zip file to your post.
 

Mad Hab

Warlord
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
297
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
If you want to upload the startsave,
1. Put it in a zip file
2. When creating a new post or editing one, click "Go Advanced", then "Manage Attachments".
3. From there, you can upload the zip file to your post.

Here you go! Good luck! :)

Cheers,

Mad Hab
 

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Sock Bramson

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
96
I'm currently testing just how hard it is to get a cultural victory with a larger empire. Playing as Arabia on a slightly modified version of Dale's true start location earth map (can't remember who made it to give 'em credit; they moved a few people around, slightly tweaked the map, and added Babylon. Kudos to Dale and the new guy, though: I have a great game going as Rome on Dale's version)

While it certainly seems like it will be more of a challenge, I think I might be able to pull it off. I believe I have 14 cities atm (Arabian Peninsula, Iraq/Iran, Afghanistan, Egypt, Istanbul [the Russians, then the French, have a city in Asia Minor that I could do without because it had no resources and I still had borders connecting to Istanbul] and an outpost in Somalia for some marble) Also, I've been annexing every city I take to make sure that this game truly tests the cultural possibilities of large empires.

It's about 1830 or so right now. I've been building as many cultural buildings as I can afford, which with my economy is fortunately quite a bit. I think I'm generating around 130 culture or so a turn, and once some of my newly conquered cities get there own culture buildings this'll go up. I still need 3-4 policies to get to the 3/5 mark, but I recently got the freedom policy that reduces the cost of future policies. Worse comes to worse, I'm heading the leader boards (it's only set on Prince), so I should be able to win no matter what. Hell, I've taken 4 capitals so far, so I could go for a warmonger victory :)P), especially considering the fact that quite a few other civs have lost their capitals as well.

I'll keep you guys posted on how things end up. There may yet be hope for big civs who love pumping out lots of purple.
 

Malkaviel

Prince
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
338
130 culture per turn in mid 1800's is way low to benchmark. should be closer to 300.

the next plateau happens as early as you can get christo redentor and broadcast in most (every) cities, and have 600 by 1900-1920. This will give you about 70 years to build utopia, but by then with factory/railroad takes maybe 15.

So if you mess with the numbers, and have decent science (or beeline, skipping stuff like artillery) you "could" have 250 in mid 1800's, and finish utopia in time.

edit: this is with 6 max cities, puppets add to your "total per policy" plateaus.
 

BjoernLars

Warlord
Joined
Apr 8, 2005
Messages
270
Location
Anyang, Kyeonggi-do, South Korea
I agree with you a bit about victory conditions in Civ V.

To me, Civ is all about the story that has happened over the 6,000 years of game play, not trying to beat it in X amount of turns. For my play style, I like to start deciding which victory condition I want to aim for when I get to the beginning of the Industrial age.

At about this point of the game you can see how your game developed so far and find your strength compared to the AI and then shoot for that win. The Cultural Victory is something that you have to plan from turn 1.
 

Sock Bramson

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
96
I was able to get a cultural victory by 1900 or so with Gandhi producing only 300 or so culture per turn. (and this was while I was messing around on a lower difficulty, trying to be the best at everything besides city count, i.e. before cristo rendentor or broadcast towers) I DO still agree that I'm cutting it pretty darn close with my current Arabia game, but, like I said, I'm still gonna try, and I'll let you all know how it turns out.

edit: the India game was after I'd done the Bollywood achievement, so I was running with more than 3 cities. (6-7, I believe. I can't remember based on geographic location because it was a random map)
 
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