They Should Probably Fix Global Warming.

[r_rolo1]

Well, civilopedia was never exactly completely accurate .... and this entry was never updated in BtS anyway.

So, short historical resume:

Pre BtS 3.17 ( includes Vanilla, Warlords and BtS up to 3.13 )

GW can be caused by either nuclear bombardement or by meltdowns in Nuclear plants ( this is really not explained in civilopedia ). After a certain GW level, the game starts transforming tiles into desert with a certain fixed probability. The process is irreversible and can't be countered.

BtS 3.17

GW can be caused by either nuclear bombardement, meltdowns in Nuclear plants or combined world global unhealthiness production, not even global unhealthiness, meaning that building health bringing builings or linking health resources is useless ( this is really not explained in civilopedia as well, given that this part of civilopedia is unaltered since Vanilla ). After a certain GW level, the game starts transforming tiles with a certain fixed probability, to desert if they don't have a forest or jungle and only removing the forest or jungle if the tile has one of those. The process is irreversible and can't be actively countered, in spite of the global forestal ( forest + jungle ) coverage conter the GW points buildup. See Refar analysis on this issue for more details.

My point in quoting the civilopedia above was not to tell what really happens, but a awnser to deanej post asking if there was documentation linking nukes to GW from Firaxis.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I think the only reason nukes cause global warming NOW is because of the limitations of the first game. It would probably have been too complex to have two types of pollution in Civ I so fallout was the same as industrial pollution and the drawback to over nuking was tied in with global warming, as it carried over to Civ IV.

 

[Camikaze]

A majority of players play levels > noble.

Also, there's no excuse for not balancing features based on difficulty.

There must be some reason for Noble being default, and balancing is probably it. Sure, it should be well balanced for all difficulties, but I guess that's just how they made it.

There's also no excuse for GW in civ IV. It's a garbage feature based on something with no proven causality to date. Why is this fairy magic desert spell allowed in the game? GW in civ is no more realistic than trading people fur causing them to spontaneously combust.

Why not let us "build" army ants while they're at it, ones that are capable of devouring entire cities? Why not just put magic spells in basic civ? Because that's what GW is. A magic spell that destroys a terrain improvement and turns it into desert with 0 logical explanation, basis in real life, or true causality in-game.

I think there is definitely a place for global warming in civ, just not in its present form. The causes and effects both need changing, evidently. Maybe it would occur through long-term pollution, and result in rising sea levels and some desertification.

 

[UWHabs]

Nukes tied to global warming is fine. It basically all represents global environmental issues plaguing civilization.

Really, GW wouldn't be nearly the problem it is now in the game would just be to throw a fallout feature on to a square that you could clean up with ecology. Even if it took 10 turns to clean up, and it didn't matter how many workers, at least then it would be "manageable". As it is now, turning the world into a barren wasteland is a bit harsh.

 

[Glassfan]

Worse than harsh, it's Politically Correct!

 

[Kaosprophet]

A majority of players play levels > noble.

Also, there's no excuse for not balancing features based on difficulty.

There's also no excuse for GW in civ IV. It's a garbage feature based on something with no proven causality to date.

Yet a believer-base large enough to influence government policy. Care to take a wager that Sid is among that demographic?

GW in civ is no more realistic than trading people fur causing them to spontaneously combust.

Is this a veiled reference to the smallpox blankets, or was that unintentional?

 

[omnimutant]

I'm starting to get scared wondering if depleting resources will be in the next version. As much as I love the Civ games I don't like "social responsibility" shoved down my throat when playing a video game.

We need a "cave man" version of Civ where the "modern era" is the height of the Bronze age.

 

[Acronym2]

You know, I've read this entire post to get a look at some of the XML of global warming and I can say that its a bit disappointing to see ones empire start to suffer from global warming late game. Especially when you weren't the one who started a nuclear war.

However, some model for the effects of global warming and nuclear war should be included in a game covering the whole span of human developement. After all, the real civilized world is facing those very things. Few people can refute the fact the large scale industrialization/habitation is having an effect beyond what we believed it did or could. Also, many of us forget the cold war and just how many nuclear weapons were/are possesed by the U.S. and the former Soviet Union (Over 20,000!) and ready to be used against their intended targets (and can still be used if the global situation changes drastically).

What a complete disaster a war would be for those two countries and anyone else that was involved. In fact, if a full nuclear exchange ever took place, those nations would no longer by super powers and would likely never recover to by major powers in the world for decades if ever at all. Long term effects/casualties aside, just the distruction/disruption of infrastructure will bring any developed country down to the level of "third world". Civilizations do indeed face some consequences as a result of their developement.

So I think Firaxis was simply trying to model this into the game and linking Nukes with it is just a way of bundling the total consequence. Although, I do think the mechanism for it could be tweaked a bit. A little rise in sea level and some forest/grasslands/jungles turning to plains and plains to desert could better simulate a century's worth of change in global warming.....more of a slow progression that starts to become more annoying if left unchecked. Perhaps even a few technologies or buildings that would slow or stop it and maybe something in diplomacy and/or the U.N. to simulate nuclear arms treaties, etc.

You know, something like the above would be good great fodder for a Mod.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe there is a toggle in the options menu of BTS that turns off the effects of global warming.)

 

[omnimutant]

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a toggle in the options menu that turns off the effects of global warming?)

I wish! Unfortunately no.

 

[Acronym2]

I wish! Unfortunately no.

You know, I'll swear I've seen something like a toggle for global warming. Maybe it was in Dale's Combat Mod or Revolution DCM. In any event, it is easy to change in XML and I'm sure somebody has or will post a modification to do it.

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, another thing that irks me about GW in game ( and that I believe is in the core of a lot of the people complaints about it ), besides the the fact you can't do anything about it once it starts , is the fact that the AI wasn't and isn't aware that GW exists as a game feature in any version or patch of the game. The AI does not know that nuking to oblivion will turn the world into desert, the AI does not know that Nuclear plants meltdowns count as nukes in that regard, and in BtS 3.17, the AI does not know that chopping forests and jungles and producing a lot of unhealthiness will also bring GW. In resume we have a global variable that only one player is aware and worried with. Given that the AI only treats nukes in a special way when menancing the human in the diplo screen, using them as disposable siege in combat, that it will build nuke plants without thinking twice, that will chop like a madman and will not care about unhealthiness production, ti means that a human caring or not with GW will roughly have the same effect. Said in other words, given the way the AI is coded, you will have the world going to desert in every game as long as you play enough turns, regardless of what you do ... and that is not exactly offering the player "interesting choices"

 

[binhthuy71]

Said in other words, given the way the AI is coded, you will have the world going to desert in every game as long as you play enough turns, regardless of what you do ... and that is not exactly offering the player "interesting choices"

I made the choice to turn off GW and meltdown in the XML (Thanks to the instructions in this thread). There are stratagems for dealing with every other silly aspect of the game; AP, vassals, Monty, inter-AI tech trading, etc. but none for dealing with GW-inducing behaviors by the AI so, after consideration, GW went.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yet a believer-base large enough to influence government policy. Care to take a wager that Sid is among that demographic?



Is this a veiled reference to the smallpox blankets, or was that unintentional?

Well, I'd be hard pressed to lump GW with religion...GW is no myth but the extent of what factors cause it has definitely not been proven. Do we account for 5%? 50%? Given that GW is controversial in real life terms to begin with, it doesn't strike me as a game feature one would normally want to take liberties with, especially in an unbalanced/annoying fashion.

As for the smallpox blankets reference, it wasn't, at least not intentionally. Maybe I should pretend it was though, so that people don't think I'm weird because that was just the first thing that popped into my head...

 

[KMadCandy]

As for the smallpox blankets reference, it wasn't, at least not intentionally. Maybe I should pretend it was though, so that people don't think I'm weird because that was just the first thing that popped into my head...

i don't think that's the only reason people will think you're weird . but i've read enough of your posts that i get the impression you're not actually worried about folks thinking you're weird... *giggle*

on-topic: the new GW is ridiculous in my permanoob opinion, yes i'd love a "shut it off" button if it's gonna be this crazy and the AI is going to (by default, since i certainly can't think of a way to balance it) just ignore it at the start even tho terrain influences it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

i don't think that's the only reason people will think you're weird .

What are you trying to say?! . It's starting to feel like there are privateers off my shore...