They're All Barbarians.

[pigswill]

These PaRRRisians are much too laid back and sophisticated for a simple rustic like me .

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

These PaRRRisians are much too laid back and sophisticated for a simple rustic like me .

Here is the save, I will draft a report asap... I replayed the first three turns as I had totally forgotten and signed 2 OBs and got resources instinctivly . Replayed the same but without this nonsense...

Sum up: we razed the two southern cities and resettled them. Got some more workers to terraform the good land (at least 6 iirc). Machinery is in and we got monarchy from Qin. Switched into bureau/monarchy (forgot about vassalage ... think it won't make much difference anyway since we are now at peace and we can switch again in GA - but still sorry, not the greatest round ever )

 

[cripp7]

Got it! We need Feud in order to get into Vassalage, we're severely lacking an army to take on Asoka atm. Where are we going tech wise? I see that Aesthetics is queued, Drama for building would be nice for newly settled cities.

I think hitting Asoka's 2 southern cities would be good, but need some CG units Sapporo

 

[pigswill]

I'm thinking myself that this is a good time to consolidate our gains, grow our current cities and catch up on tech. Its worth grabbing australia and borneo because they'll pay for themselves easily enough. I don't think this is the time to seek out new wars. Asoka will hopefully stay peaceful, GK will hopefully be preoccupied but he's almost as primitive as we are.
Head towards cuirassiers or cannon, both of which will take more than a few turns. I'm not sure I'd even try for liberalism.

 

[nocho]

I'm thinking myself that this is a good time to consolidate our gains, grow our current cities and catch up on tech. Its worth grabbing australia and borneo because they'll pay for themselves easily enough. I don't think this is the time to seek out new wars. Asoka will hopefully stay peaceful, GK will hopefully be preoccupied but he's almost as primitive as we are.
Head towards cuirassiers or cannon, both of which will take more than a few turns. I'm not sure I'd even try for liberalism.

I'm thinking on the contrary that next set should see to building a crapload of samurai for knocking out Asoka from the continent in the set thereafter... Our UU won't have an unlimited timespan, but I think it's certainly good enough now for Asoka. Cyrus may be another matter though. Extorting feudalism and engineering from the Indians would be good too. I could see a case for teching aesthetics and literature ourselves to at least get out HE in Nara.

 

[r_rolo1]

I agree with nocho... better said, it is time to consolidate our gains while preparing a army to take India out, given that they were nice enough to clear the jungle of the Indian subcontinent and off SE Asia

Not sure of how to handle India, though ... regarding peace deals If we take too little, the war will not pay itself, if we take too much we can atract the Persians to a bloodied India while we are in a peace deal ( or worse, a diplo vassalisation of India to Russia ( Cathy is friendly with them ) )... but IMHO we can, and should keep the momentum west as sson as possible.

P.S We will need a navy to clear out the Indians of the island of Java ... not mentioning that it would help to reinforce our troops in India proper.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I could see a case for teching aesthetics and literature ourselves to at least get out HE in Nara.

+1. Would go with engeenering after that for trebs and faster movements. I agree with Pigswill that liberalism seems a bit off.

 

[pigswill]

Having had another look at the save I'm really not at all convinced by an invasion of India. Asoka will get to engineering before we get a stack together. Axes against LBs and maces? Samurai against castles? I'm seriously not convinced.

On the other hand Asoka's got 7 cities to our 16. If we can pinch australasia before he gets there then its 20 cities against 10. We're also ploughing our EPs into Asoka so we can steal his techs without the tedium of battle.

If anyone's feeling particularly bloodthirsty we can always pick on GK again.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Having had another look at the save I'm really not at all convinced by an invasion of India. Asoka will get to engineering before we get a stack together. Axes against LBs and maces? Samurai against castles? I'm seriously not convinced.

trebs/pikes/samurais is a fine combo till rifles I guess. IMO we should rest while building the HE in Nara then push again. NE in Kyoto or the new capital? New Beijing (well that coastal city in the north of what was known as "China") is also good though it is close to Genghis so I wouldn't put a wonder there.
Are we allowed to bribe people to war? Bribing cyrus and/or Cathy before declaring on Ashoka would be usefull (less chance they accept him as vassal)

 

[pigswill]

VeRRRy droll .

Negotiate with barbarians?

They're not 'people' they're barbarians! Which bit of 'They're All Barbarians' don't you understand?

 

[cripp7]

Continue aesthetics > lit

Kyoto: galley > settler
Nara, Nagoya: court >samari's
Osaka: forge > settler
Grow the other cities.
Farms are needed in the NW cities as they're lacking in

Where's the wb in Satsuma going?

We can pair up a couple galley/triemes with settlers to start treking towards Australia

 

[r_rolo1]

I really don't understand why do you people want to go Australia. Every hammer that we are putting in a settler to Australia is:

- a hammer not put in a settler to replace a conquered city even if to avoid resettling by the AI

- a hammer not put in a unit used to capture and raze a enemy city ( remember the variant ? )

Worse, Australia barring some very selected spots is crapland ( atleast relatively ) ...

BTW I don't think that no one ever sugested to make war with India now, with our depleted stack of axes + catapults ( atleast I didn't ). But every turn that we lose making something that is not heavily related with warring and razing enemy cities is a turn that our enemies can use to settle more godamned cities in Siberia or in other junk spots where we have to move later to clean up. And IMHO any option that has not the goal in DoWing India in 20-30 turns is a waste of our time in terms of fulfilling the variant ( those 20-30 turns would be used both to get some infra done as to get some shiny samurai around + some cats )

[/channeling Bush II]

 

[pigswill]

r rolo1 I have two words to say to you: unit maintenance.

Why Australia? i) gems for +2 happy ii) trade route income for distance iii) If we don't go there someone else will, quite possibly Asoka.

I reckon that the main challenge is the economy which means research which means more advanced units. Every hammer we put into obselete units is a hammer or beaker we've lost from research (and that's just the build cost let alone unit maintenance costs). Samurai have a reasonable lifespan combined with seige (trebs then cannon) but catapults are getting to the end of their usefulness.

Every turn we put into improving the economy is a turn invested in future warfare. Do we really want to do the Full Monte: giant stacks of sams and cats against rifles and cavalry?

 

[nocho]

If the worry is about maintenance cost, then I don't know whether settling Australia is a particularly good idea.

However, I'm not against transferring a settler to Australia in the next set if there's a really good spot to settle (don't know the map that much). Then again, I really do think we should plan to take out Asoka soon. Firstly precisely because we don't want to face rifles and cavs with our samurai. Secondly because he has pretty good land, but with the razing and resettling those cities need some time to be up and running. Thirdly, the sooner we strike him, the lesser island cities he'll be mushrooming. The real battle we'll be facing is likely with Darius and the sooner we have the groundwork for that done (including having decent cities in the subcontinent) the better, IMO.
I don't think unit maintenance is that big an issue yet. We could run vassalage, we could sacrifice older units against India to soften him up before samurai finish the job. And if necessary, each city gained thanks to these units could run wealth after a while to make up for higher maintenance with a big interest to boot. The pillage money itself from the cities we raze already makes up a good deal of any increased maintenance costs, actually.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Continue aesthetics > lit

imo yes

Kyoto: galley > settler
Nara, Nagoya: court >samari's
Osaka: forge > settler
Grow the other cities.
Farms are needed in the NW cities as they're lacking in

Nara shouldn't be whipped unless it is about to grow in unhappiness. This will prolly be our hammer rich city, it needs the pop to work mines and shops. I agree with the farms in the north... I was about to post another rant about the cottaging but I vetoed it as I played crappy last round

Where's the wb in Satsuma going?

the most recently settled city needs one (south, the vietnam (dai viet!) city)

We can pair up a couple galley/triemes with settlers to start treking towards Australia

I am not sure of the move but (that's pig's will ) the gems would be nice. Make sure u bring an axe for each settler. And we will need prolly two workers for each city down there too. (so two boats/city...).

I feel the global focus should still be on getting in position to attack the Indians ASAP (aka HE, and trebs), as Rolo said. I would let those axes up north still in case Genghis isn't busy anymore by european barbarians.

 

[pigswill]

If the majority of the team want to forget Australia and build up sams while heading towards engineering then I'll abide by the majority. I really do think we need to build up the economy so no whipping, if a city hits happy cap it can either switch tiles or build a settler.

 

[r_rolo1]

r rolo1 I have two words to say to you: unit maintenance.

Argument invalid

Spoiler :

Why Australia? i) gems for +2 happy ii) trade route income for distance iii) If we don't go there someone else will, quite possibly Asoka.

I) Fair enough, but I'm not sure if a single resource will pay up ... The spot you are talking has 1 fish, one desert iron hill, one riverside plains iron hill, one riverside plains gems hill, 2 plains forest ( one riverside ) and two plains tiles ( one riverside, that will most likely be used for city site ). The rest is water or desert....

II) City maintenance also increases with distance

III) The only AI that settle Australia in this map except far later in the game are India, Japan and China. We are Japan, China is basically landlocked and , if we war India, I'm pretty sure we can stop them of settling Australia. And even if they to, the final result is the same than settling it ourselves...

I reckon that the main challenge is the economy which means research which means more advanced units. Every hammer we put into obselete units is a hammer or beaker we've lost from research (and that's just the build cost let alone unit maintenance costs). Samurai have a reasonable lifespan combined with seige (trebs then cannon) but catapults are getting to the end of their usefulness.

Every turn we put into improving the economy is a turn invested in future warfare. Do we really want to do the Full Monte: giant stacks of sams and cats against rifles and cavalry?

Why not? It would work if well done But I'm not even defending that ...

What I'm saying is that we do not gain anything in waiting for attacking India. His land is prime quality, so the more time we give him, the more techs he will get in front of us ( same applies to every other guy sitting in top of good land ). Being Asoka a wimp, he should have light defenses , maybe 1-2 LB for city except his cap, so samurai + cats will do just fine. And for heavens sake, you are talking as if trebs were anything fantastically superior to catapults ... not mentioning that, regardless of using cats or trebs, they will used as suicide units anyway

 

[cripp7]

Ok, my internet was down for 2 days, I played 9 turns and need opinions

IHT-

Move stack back into Sapporo
Nara ch
Nagoya ^^
Osaka forge
Tokyo ^^

Turn 224-
Kyoto galley > settler
Osaka forge > samari
Tokyo forge > samari
Nara ch > samari
Nagoya ch > barracks

Turn 225-
Nagoya rax > samari
Shim granary > set to work river sheep
AP Vote comes up...

Spoiler :

Voted No

to 100%

Turn 226-
Kyoto settler
Louis demand

Spoiler :

Izzy demand

Oh SH$T, AP Vote succeds

Spoiler :

We'll have to capture that back

Workers on the island all done and load on a galley to the mainland

Turn 227-
Aessthetic > Poly > Lit
Kyoto settler > treme
Lost borders around Hakodata
to 0%

Turn 228-
Islam spread to our lands
workers unloaded

Turn 229-
Stasuma forge > samari
Matsuyama forge > ch
Christ has spread
to 100%

Turn 230-
Kag market
Sapporo ^^ monumet
to 0%

Turn 231-
Fred offer

Spoiler :

Kag market >samari
Sapporo monument > granary

Turn 232-
Salad offer

Spoiler :

Alex offer

Spoiler :

missed screen, no to Open Borders

Tokyo samari > ch
to 100%

Turn 233-
Mansu demand

Spoiler :

stop here to discuss whether we attack china to get our city back, next turn Mansu asks to join in the against China.

 

[r_rolo1]

So, why exactly did you didn't defy the resolution ? The AI is pretty sheepish in terms of saying yes to proposals of AP/UN origin ( basically they will say yes unless they have a good reason to say no ... and in here not much of the AI around had reasons to deny

Anyway, we should IMHO make a fast war to retake the city and acept mansa sugestion ( or , if the SG leader is picky, deny it and start the war anyway ), even if to show the barbs that we aren't scared of the pope And OFC keep it, it is a city of ours , not one made by the heathens ( BTW rule clarification in here is sorely needed )

P.S Nice colour/ tranparency combo. It strikes me as familiar, dunno why

 

[pigswill]

Once a Japanese city always a Japanese city. Best to recapture asap before its too contaminated by barbarian influences (I hesitate to say culture).

Is the AP Japanese? No? Then its barbarian. We despise barbarians. The very notion that Japan would even listen to a barbarian let alone be cowed reeks of dishonour. Defy their 'Apostolic Palace'. What's better than saying 'no' to a barbarian? Saying 'Never'!

The mansa barbarian wants to fight the qin barbarian. Not interested. Let him do what he wants. They're all barbarians. Ignore him.

Diplomacy only exists between civilised nations. Unfortunately we're the only civilised nation in a world of barbarians.